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  1. #31
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I think that independence and interdependence are extremes. You seem to be looking at opposite ends of a spectrum rather than the spectrum itself, and have aligned yourself with interdependence in such a way that you seem less aware of its pitfalls than you should be.
    Ha... no, trust me, I'm more than familiar with the down sides of being in an interdependent community!!

    At its worst, independence fosters a survival mentality, like that of a person on a deserted island. This mentality is closer to animal than human, which definitely makes it less conducive to personal growth. Interdependence, at its worst, manifests as a sense of entitlement and inability to act unilaterally. Think of people who live on welfare and refuse to find a job (not the ones who can't, the ones who don't try), and of the U.S. Congress.
    Ah, see now it seems to me that you're confusing 'interdependence' with 'dependency'. Not the same thing at all. The idea that "we look after each other" meaning I EARN my entitlement to be helped BY helping others in my turn, is quite different from the passive idea of entitlement to be looked after for nothing. You're talking about the 'all rights, no responsibilities' mentality, which I don't condone.

    My belief is that you should be independent in some aspects, and interdependent in others. I think that a person should define themselves independently, so that they don't forget who they are when interacting with others, or allow those others to redefine them in a way that contradicts their nature. You should (ideally) also be willing to act on your own ideas and beliefs, rather than being bound by what others think or feel is right. However, you should be willing to listen to what others have to say, and evaluate their advice before deciding if it relates to you or not. You should also try to avoid harming others if you can, even helping them if doing so doesn't require you to go too far out of your way. You should also try to be understanding of where others are coming from, and consider their interests when dealing with them.
    Can I post that on the D&D forum for a TN definition?

    I can sorta relate to it, except that I have to add in there that 'defining yourself independently' carries with it the risk of delusion... if that definition isn't to at least some extent influenced by the responses in external reality of others to that 'self' that you are. People are prone to hearing what they want to hear and 'evaluating their advice before deciding if it relates to you or not', only to usually come to the conclusion that it doesn't, if it's something they don't like (but could well be true).

    The advantages of independence are flexibility and the ability to change course more quickly. The disadvantages are that there's no support, and few opportunities for growth. The advantages of interdependence are a kind of stability created by the web of interrelationships, and an atmosphere that creates more opportunity in general. The disadvantages are that it becomes a lot harder to adapt to things, and that movement only happens with consensus, which can be hard to achieve.
    Those disadvantages aren't something I experience... the only disadvantage I can think of really is just that it means putting up with people's bad sides as well as their good, and people can be a REAL pain in the ass sometimes!

    Does that make sense?
    Yeah, all makes perfect sense. But what I was getting at was that we're social animals by nature, and 99% of humans aren't capable of obtaining everything they need to remain physically and mentally healthy whilst living completely alone, but I see a worrying tendency, especially in urban culture, to believe that this is possible and even desirable, as more and more people are living alone and less and less people are talking to their neighbours. There is a noticeable peak of people seeking help with isolation related depression in Western cities, where individualist, independent culture prevails; the problem is far less pronounced in rural communities... and in my capacity as a chaplain I do get far more instances of people who have spiralled themselves out of control with self-doubt, existential angst and all sorts of other things that have simply lost their perspective to this person because they've not been around other people enough to keep the perspective healthy - get it ALL the time in towns, but very rarely in the countryside.

    (wish I could quote sources for that, but I don't have them to hand! It was probably New Scientist, but I can't remember which issue!)
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  2. #32
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Intellectually, I know that I am alone amongst others.

    I am an organism, a self-contained system, my self is trapped within my skin.

    When I feel connected to others, and others can be life at large or something as small as one or two people I feel less alone, in fact, at times like these, I do not feel alone at all.

    When I was a child, I rarely felt alone, I had a group of friends, got along with my teachers, and was generally always engaged in my surrounding so much so to ever have the time to even think about my aloneness.

    I currently live with others, my mother, her friend and my two dogs, and living with them, I guess makes me feel less alone, the echoes of my existence bounce off of theirs, but, do they understand me? Nope.

    I currently do not have anyone whom I feel understands me and that makes me feel alone.

    I am rambling, the end.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

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  3. #33
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I think there's something in the idea that this concept is what's behind why the vast majority of people find, sometimes even despite themselves, that helping others can be hugely gratifying.
    This may be why the one principle I commented about a bit, on the thread about the Dale Carnegie book, is so successful.

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Individualism suits a capitalist economy, it's great for 'economic growth' and marketing and stuff... but I don't think it's good for humanity at all; it fosters an ideal of independence, whereas I believe human beings are meant to be interdependent.
    To a certain extent, I agree with this. Of course it evokes the bugaboo word "Communism". But people often use this "big C" term as a synonym for Socialism too; or use it even when we compartmentalize anything as socialized "____________" ( fill in the blank ) . But people volunteering to help one another is different.

    Due to the same "individualist" forces, many of us see less real world "town hall" gatherings, and some villages/towns/cities do not even have many places that qualify as "public squares", "downtowns", or "meeting places" because everything becomes more oriented to strip malls containing different corporate franchises such as McDonalds, Walmart, Home Depot, Applebees etc.

    You can still go to a place like Starbucks and chit-chat, but since it is designed to have people divided up by table on a "per existing party" basis, you often don't see that much discourse between strangers going on.

    I remember walking around Las Vegas one time, and having to deal with the fact that in certain areas one's passage was dicey. This is because of the fact that pedestrians were discouraged from moving about by the simple design of no available sidewalks. I've seen this same discouragement of walking in many other places too; usually in the suburbs.

    One can still have talks ( like this one we are having here ) on the net, instead of real life, but I've noticed there isn't that much going on locally for me on the net, as far as "community opinion/feedback" or "how do we organize ?" etc. People would have it that this means that most of us just don't care, but I don't think so.

    I suppose that some churches may offer this, but a lot of them are focused on strictly religious matters. Since I'm fine with a separation of church and state, I don't have a beef with that; but why can't there be such secular centers..... besides just bars ?

    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    I relate to much of what you said kuranes... specially this part:
    .................................................. ....................................
    Though I don't think anyone is truly incapable... but many, many people do have inhibitions which block the way. Those inhibitions need to be addressed though, before they can do it, and often they're not even aware that they're there.
    [Bolding mine] Mine ! Mine, I tell you !!!

    Yes, I can relate to many different kinds of people on at least some level, which I addressed in Captain Chick's thread about the disadvantages of being "different". But I don't feel that same special "connection" ( that I described here in this post ) with everyone; except possibly ( to a slight degree ) after I have pulled an all-nighter ( or two in a row ) and I'm walking around in a strange frame of mind, suddenly lucidly attuned to everyone's individual situation, as opposed to categorizing them as being "not relevant" almost instantly, as I hurry about my business.

    At those times I'll stop and surprise strangers, by empathizing with their/our lives in a low key way: those lives which sometimes seem "written on their faces" as the "old expression" goes - since it is those same habitual expressions whose lines I am seeing - or whose concerns and focus are obvious due to their activities or location etc. They'll usually be pleasantly surprised that I did so, just like people are surprised if I look into their eyes and smile a little when they're telling me "how they're doing" after a greeting. They might start telling me things they wouldn't even tell their friends , because after all I am "only a stranger they'll never see again"......

    Then, after some time in these pursuits, I might see a clock, and suddenly be drawn back in the rat race....

    "Get out of the way. it's a busy day. I've got things on my mind. For want of the price, of tea and a slice..."

    "..on the turning away.." PF

    "She's a twentieth century fox. No tears, no fears. No ruined years. No clocks." Jim Morrison - The Doors

    "You're all makin' money, ....losin' time." Prince
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  4. #34
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    I am rambling, the end.
    You should end all your posts with this.

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  5. #35
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    I guess it's that my tiny introvert brain can't fathom it, but I really don't understand the need to identify with each other while suffering.

    I mean, all you get is no solution and two miserable people. How is that worth anything?
    Hm... I don't think you're getting it, old chap...

    You see, a lot of people get down because they feel like there's something wrong with them. This might be some part of their personality that was continuously criticized by perhaps, an overbearing parent or teacher, maybe a bully, something like that. And they might have lost a sense of perspective over this aspect of themselves when it comes to judging their worth as a person, and so fall into self-loathing.

    To discover, through talking with someone else, that you're not the only person who has this particular quality or trait, opinion or need or whatever, and that in fact, someone else not only has it but believes it to be a strength, and has perhaps had successes based on that trait - this can go a long way to helping the other person realize that they're not so shitty after all and that they do have it within them to succeed at the things they want to do.

    To realize that somebody else wrestles with the same issues as you can be immensely constructive, because you can compare notes as to how to deal with it - perhaps the other person has developed some strategies that you didn't think of and vice versa, and you can, through supporting each other, more quickly and successfully pwn the issue. Not only through sharing knowledge and experience relevant to the issue, but also through helping to keep each other motivated when you lose heart sometimes.

    It's not just supposed to be two people saying "Hey, I'm ugly" - "Yeah me too, it sucks doesn't it?" - "yeah but you being ugly too makes me feel better"
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  6. #36
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    I know that there are other people out there who are like me, but how does that help me any when I cannot actually interact with them?

    God bless and thank the human need to create and leave works of art, how truly alone we would feel if we could not access these things.
    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

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  7. #37
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Hahaha kuranes... not being American, I forget that the C word is a bugaboo at all... it isn't over here - though TBH it hadn't crossed my mind

    Captain Chick - why do you feel you 'know' you're intellectually alone? You know... sometimes people who can be quite uh... outspoken... feel this way, when in fact there might be people around who understand them perfectly well and could connect with them, but are sorta inhibited from trying for fear of getting an earfull...

    Actually, I made that mistake (not saying you do Chick, just the phrase you used made me think of this) with my ISTP friend to begin with. To this day he sometimes starts mumbling apologetically after he just said something really smart that got my attention and intrigued me... I guess in the past I kinda waved my 'brains' in people's faces a bit too much and so less arrogant people like my li'l ISTP didn't feel like running the gauntlet to express their ideas... whenever he says something intelligent and then starts babbling "Oh I mean uh, well, I'm not sure if that's how you pronounce it, anyway I don't really know anything and..." it makes me feel so angry at myself because I know I did that. I must've known that guy for three years before I even realized he knew anything except fixing bikes... I feel so sometimes for the years of good friendship and excellent conversations I missed out on with him because I basically intimidated him!!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  8. #38
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Hm... I don't think you're getting it, old chap...

    You see, a lot of people get down because they feel like there's something wrong with them. This might be some part of their personality that was continuously criticized by perhaps, an overbearing parent or teacher, maybe a bully, something like that. And they might have lost a sense of perspective over this aspect of themselves when it comes to judging their worth as a person, and so fall into self-loathing.

    To discover, through talking with someone else, that you're not the only person who has this particular quality or trait, opinion or need or whatever, and that in fact, someone else not only has it but believes it to be a strength, and has perhaps had successes based on that trait - this can go a long way to helping the other person realize that they're not so shitty after all and that they do have it within them to succeed at the things they want to do.

    To realize that somebody else wrestles with the same issues as you can be immensely constructive, because you can compare notes as to how to deal with it - perhaps the other person has developed some strategies that you didn't think of and vice versa, and you can, through supporting each other, more quickly and successfully pwn the issue. Not only through sharing knowledge and experience relevant to the issue, but also through helping to keep each other motivated when you lose heart sometimes.

    It's not just supposed to be two people saying "Hey, I'm ugly" - "Yeah me too, it sucks doesn't it?" - "yeah but you being ugly too makes me feel better"
    Perhaps I am unique in that finding anyone with the same problems as I worsens my situation rather than helps it.

    Though, for some reason, I highly doubt it.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  9. #39
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Perhaps I am unique in that finding anyone with the same problems as I worsens my situation rather than helps it.

    Though, for some reason, I highly doubt it.
    Haha, there you go, you're not alone in that - does that make you feel worse about it?

    Srsly tho, are you saying it makes you feel better about your problems to feel you're completely alone with them and have no chance of support? Cos you're probably not alone in that either... hahaha...

    Anyway I'm supposed to be ignoring you, Contrary Mary!
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

  10. #40
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Haha, there you go, you're not alone in that - does that make you feel worse about it?

    Srsly tho, are you saying it makes you feel better about your problems to feel you're completely alone with them and have no chance of support? Cos you're probably not alone in that either... hahaha...

    Anyway I'm supposed to be ignoring you, Contrary Mary!
    Knowing I'm not alone in the broadest sense of the term does not bother me.

    Only when I meet these people I know of and they start talking at me about it because they think they're entitled to and that I certainly want to hear about it because they have the same problem as I do does it become an issue.

    For some reason, this happens an awful lot.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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