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  1. #111
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    I have felt the same way, CC.

    This world is full of very dull people, and it is agitating.

    Say what you want about me in regard to that statement; I'm visiting this thread for CC.

    I've solved the problem by immersing myself in my own solitary interests.. reading, writing, exercise, music...

    Growing up, you are taught that you need other people to survive, and you do, because you attend schools with many people, and forming a pack is the only way to preserve your sanity.

    Once you're out of that and into college, where you can come and go as you please, people become unnecessary.

    And the good ones always come along when you're not looking.

    So put down your pince-nez and enjoy some time spent with someone that understands you more thoroughly than anyone else ever can: your wonderful self.
    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    Yes, I think I know what CC means. And I've felt that way myself before, hence adopting her sentence in a sig quote for the moment.

    I also think I know what many of the others meant, too.

    ( No, I am not trying to outdo Jennifer as a "peacemaker". That would be reaching for the moon. )

    A person who wants feedback from others isn't necessarily "needy" or "insecure" and I get tired of seeing that meme. Naturally feedback from someone on your wavelength, or as close to it as possible, is preferrable; and I think that's all she was trying to say, in a kind of venting post.

    CC, I think what they're trying to say is... while you're waiting for feedback from those who are closer to your wavelength, it can still be valuable or just fun to get it from others, especially since we are all changing and updating ourselves constantly, anyway.

    I'll give you an example of what I mean. I once had a close acquaintance who was a conservative who thought Rush Limbaugh's words were close to modern day gospel. I couldn't stand that part of him, and he knew it, but we didn't always talk about that stuff.

    Jon had a quirky sense of humor. I remember one day we were both laughing at how ( in some ways ) we were both "snobs" and kinda proud of it, actually.

    We would laugh at silly things like shit motels with signs out front advertising "hourly rates". He was a total "J" but I would chuckle anyway as he said he despised the word "Lounge" to describe a dive we might drive by. He said that he could just imagine the kinds of people he would find there , skulking and lounging about. ( He was making fun of himself a little as he said that, knowing that we had very different worldviews of what constituted proper "relaxation" versus "laziness". ) We both laughed at his take on the lyrics to a song by "Green Day" called "When I Come Around", and mimicked Gen Y versions of Billy Idol-sneering kids saying "When I get around to it", like a guy in a CD store on the phone with his buddies, while also slowly attending to biz at the cash register.

    We saw a science fiction movie that he said he didn't care for, because something like that couldn't ever actually happen in our lifetime. I didn't see why that made a difference as far as enjoying it, for what it was. It was admittedly in its own world, but plausible enough given certain basic givens at the start. ( Like enjoying kafka's "Metamorphosis", even though you don't think anyone could ever wake up as a bug, since events proceed from that standpoint fairly logically, or at least poetically. ) He couldn't see it, though. It reminded me of a woman who objected to a quasi-villain's behavior in a movie by saying those things were "wrong"and therefore the movie was "disappointing" or "poorly acted". I'm like "yeah, that's why he's the bad guy in this scene" you know ? He's acting out what the writer intended, not his personal conscience.

    Obviously people like this are so far from my wavelength that it's funny. and it was funny. That was part of its charm. That, and a certain politeness or basic hospitality was enough to justify spending the occasional evening out together during some especially dry years, as far as me finding people who were on my wavelength. ( We eventually had a spat when we went on a long trip together, which was probably something I should have foreseen as being a prob, but had hoped otherwise, as we could neither of us afford the trip without sharing expenses. )

    Anyway, that's my take on it.

    "I need a crowd of people, but I can't face 'em day to day" - Neil Young

    "I went to the radio interview, and I ended up alone at the microphone" - NY again.
    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I just wanted to add--It is diversity that makes a strong and versatile group and society.

    Progress in this world depends on people being different in significant ways but still managing to stay accepted. Depending on how they are different, this may or may not be easy.

    Both responsibilities:
    1) of keeping your unique skills sharp,
    2) and being accepted
    falls on the individual.

    I don't think anyone will dispute that.

    What I dislike is that many people's advice is to conform. This is neither good for the individual, nor the group in the long-run. It may be necessary in the short-run, but in the long-run, it turns the group forcing conformity into an insular group that is very xenophobic, and it turns individuals who strain to conform to hate or leave the community.

    "Take responsibility" is good advice. But often the very people who like to say it are simply rationalizing their abdication of responsibility in particular situations.

    I think a lot of people were giving advice... But to be frank. Some of you were ranting against "people like her," and calling it advice. Others were making assumptions about how she feels, and basing advice off that, and when she gave clarification (though the hurt tone came through in the clarification), it was responded with well :why did you ask for advice?" I won't name names, because I know where that goes.

    Frankly, I believe this community goes through periods of insular behavior. Some who have been subjected this have adjusted, while others have not.

    But we need take responsibility in both roles. Both as an individual who has trouble conforming, and as a standing member of a group dealing with someone who doesn't conform.

    I am not an outgoing person, but I am rather accepting. I've come to know chess-masters, math geniuses, programming wizards, several school valedictorians, business tycoons, with amazingly brilliant and different ways of thinking in reasonably "pure" form because of my ability to tolerate eccentricity.

    When you advise someone to "take responsibility" make sure you are following that advice, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    Thoughts & Opinions: I've only known a couple of ENFPs in my life, but this seems to be a common problem. ENFPs can be so fun and exciting on the surface that most people are happy to stop there and not dig deeper. It's frustrating to watch.

    Advice: When you put so much hope and thought into what a person should be, it becomes easy to not appreciate them for who they are. Are you idealizing what a person should or could be?



    Confident people experience these emotions as well... the difference is that insecure people add fear, desperation, and powerlessness to the mix.



    One advantage of being an INFP is that we can get away this when we fail to find genuine and mutual connections. With ENFPs I notice an intense pressure to find that connection, and frustration when they are unable to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grayscale View Post
    i am somewhat of a lone (and only sometimes lonely) wolf, and although i am peculiar, i dont consider myself gifted... effectively, i think it is a choice i make through my behavior rather than a disadvantage forced on me as a result of peculiarity.

    i do not think it is that you expect too much of others, but rather that you expect too much of the degree that you will relate to them.

    whether someone is a special snowflake trying to find themselves in another, or merely suffering from the self-fulfilling consequences of wishing to be, it is no matter--even the most distinguished individuals have found peace. what is truly one-of-a-kind is our relationship with ourselves, until you reconcile that you are remediating the symptoms, not the sickness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    “Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer.”
    Thank you to all of the posters above!

    THANK YOU
    THANK YOU
    THANK YOU
    THANK YOU










    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I am not a non-conformist per, say. But I do believe people tend toward becoming "mobish" when ideas strike a chord.

    But the repeated message was "It is your responsibility to fit in." --which it is. At the same time, I saw a lot of "you are a misfit, see the problems you are causing?"

    Individuals will personally be be the last judge of what thier own motivations were, and I am certainly not going to argue that any particular person was motivated by a desire to agree with popular opinion and ganging-up on a (temporarily) unpoular member. But I find it hard to believe that so many people would feel the need to post essentially the same thing, with the intent of offering advice.

    In this case, the "group" was clearly mobish.

    I don't think any individual was thinking "let's make her conform," but people in general felt more free than usual take a posturing stance in thier posts, and I believe part of the reason was because there was a lot of activity with many people saying the samething.

    "Yeah, I agree with that, I'll post it too," turns into bashing of a minority opinon into submission which is rather innapropriate in a thread seeking advice, espeacially when it is the advicee holding the minority opinon.

    The topic of the thread was also about not fiting in, or feeling different. So in this case, the very advice, "you need to do the work to fit-in," (which is good) along with the dynamic of drowning out a minority opinon, was a message to "conform." (which is not so good)




    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  2. #112
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm... I must say, I don't think this conversation has gone in a particularly useful direction.

    It seems to me that everyone keeps missing an important part of everyone else's meaning, and then projects their own negative assumptions onto the other, resulting in argument and feelings of offense. The problem is that people aren't giving one another the benefit of the doubt here about their intentions.

    I think CaptainChick's first mistake was to refer to herself as gifted. Due to the context and history of this forum, that was a very poor choice of words... there have been too many egocentric intellectual types here complaining about society and their struggles with people, and as a result of the backlash against that due to thinning patience with such expressions, people were hypersensitive to that archetype, quick to see it even if it wasn't there, and to dismiss it as a lack of maturity.

    In reality, I think CC's post had very little to do with that. Rather, she was simply looking to be related to. She wanted to know that other people here understood how she felt, for people to express their own feelings and thoughts on their situation if they had some that were similar to hers, in not being understood by the majority of people around them. Perhaps she also wanted thoughts on how it was that she was different, and how she might find people who shared more of her interests, due to her lack of fulfillment in her current group of acquaintances.





    The majority of people here responded in one of three ways:

    1. They fixated on her reference to being "gifted" and immediately related it to their own thoughts/feelings about themselves (whom they perceived as normal people) being dismissed by an aristocratic/cliquish group, and decided she was one of "them," just coming here to glorify the merits of her own group and their struggles with the "commoners."

    2. They decided that it was due to a lack of maturity and an egocentric personality... that she simply wasn't open to other people, and was putting up a facade, needing to be different, and thus being unable to relate to the people around her due to not being willing to come to their level.

    3. They dismissed her as a whiny loser who was needy of attention and sympathy, and pathetically wanting to share their feelings with everyone else. There was some truth in this one... but I've found it's a rather callous viewpoint.





    CC herself, of course, was not blameless... she did make some errors in presenting herself:

    1. She referred to herself as "gifted," using an emotionally charged word where a more neutral one might have better conveyed her meaning.

    2. She was understandably upset when people misinterpreted her meaning in the first place, and failed to retain her composure in responding, which resulted in the confirmation of the assumptions of those who had misjudged her meaning/intentions in the first place (interpreting the pain/anger as denial and protection of personal illusions). If she had remained cool and responded more sympathetically and carefully to their interpretation while explaining why she didn't agree with it, they might well have turned their assessment around.

    3. She took more and more things personally as the thread went on, until it degenerated into her defending herself from anyone who didn't agree with her, because she felt too threatened to stop and examine herself or others carefully, and just got trapped in reacting emotionally and defensively to everything, using more emotionally charged language that wasn't thought out, and pretty much saying the first thing that popped into her head.






    So... I would say there was a lot of misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions due to past experience on both sides. I hope that we can improve from this kind of behavior, as it doesn't seem conducive to research, mutual understanding, or good discussion.

    Does that make sense?
    Excellent and insightful post!!!

    You're making perfect sense!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

  3. #113
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Hmm... I must say, I don't think this conversation has gone in a particularly useful direction.

    It seems to me that everyone keeps missing an important part of everyone else's meaning, and then projects their own negative assumptions onto the other, resulting in argument and feelings of offense. The problem is that people aren't giving one another the benefit of the doubt here about their intentions.

    I think CaptainChick's first mistake was to refer to herself as gifted. Due to the context and history of this forum, that was a very poor choice of words... there have been too many egocentric intellectual types here complaining about society and their struggles with people, and as a result of the backlash against that due to thinning patience with such expressions, people were hypersensitive to that archetype, quick to see it even if it wasn't there, and to dismiss it as a lack of maturity.

    In reality, I think CC's post had very little to do with that. Rather, she was simply looking to be related to. She wanted to know that other people here understood how she felt, for people to express their own feelings and thoughts on their situation if they had some that were similar to hers, in not being understood by the majority of people around them. Perhaps she also wanted thoughts on how it was that she was different, and how she might find people who shared more of her interests, due to her lack of fulfillment in her current group of acquaintances.





    The majority of people here responded in one of three ways:

    1. They fixated on her reference to being "gifted" and immediately related it to their own thoughts/feelings about themselves (whom they perceived as normal people) being dismissed by an aristocratic/cliquish group, and decided she was one of "them," just coming here to glorify the merits of her own group and their struggles with the "commoners."

    2. They decided that it was due to a lack of maturity and an egocentric personality... that she simply wasn't open to other people, and was putting up a facade, needing to be different, and thus being unable to relate to the people around her due to not being willing to come to their level.

    3. They dismissed her as a whiny loser who was needy of attention and sympathy, and pathetically wanting to share their feelings with everyone else. There was some truth in this one... but I've found it's a rather callous viewpoint.





    CC herself, of course, was not blameless... she did make some errors in presenting herself:

    1. She referred to herself as "gifted," using an emotionally charged word where a more neutral one might have better conveyed her meaning.

    2. She was understandably upset when people misinterpreted her meaning in the first place, and failed to retain her composure in responding, which resulted in the confirmation of the assumptions of those who had misjudged her meaning/intentions in the first place (interpreting the pain/anger as denial and protection of personal illusions). If she had remained cool and responded more sympathetically and carefully to their interpretation while explaining why she didn't agree with it, they might well have turned their assessment around.

    3. She took more and more things personally as the thread went on, until it degenerated into her defending herself from anyone who didn't agree with her, because she felt too threatened to stop and examine herself or others carefully, and just got trapped in reacting emotionally and defensively to everything, using more emotionally charged language that wasn't thought out, and pretty much saying the first thing that popped into her head.






    So... I would say there was a lot of misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions due to past experience on both sides. I hope that we can improve from this kind of behavior, as it doesn't seem conducive to research, mutual understanding, or good discussion.

    Does that make sense?
    Fair enough. Well-articulated. I addressed my point of view. Things are clear. For me, the matter is closed.
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Little Linguist View Post
    Fair enough. Well-articulated. I addressed my point of view. Things are clear. For me, the matter is closed.
    Hehe. Athenian beat me to it. I am mostly posting while I run simulations.

    It is "group" thing, because the individual interactions were fairly normal.

    The first 20 or so posts were normal advice, after that there was some discussion of a misunderstanding till about post 30 when there were two interlinking discussions of misunderstanding, which turned into many people believing the misunderstandings were part of the original discussion and "taking sides" (mostly on one). Things finally became personal around the 70's.

    You can read through yourself, and the way Athenian described what was going on is close enough to the way I saw things too.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #115
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Admittedly I haven't read the whole thread, just the first few pages and the last page, and I don't have the energy to read the (apparent) brouhaha in the middle.

    It would seem that the controversy is indicative of the very thing CC was talking about in the first place. Of course, the word "gifted" can be offputting, but it's also dishonest to imagine that sometimes being intelligent can cause problems in life, due to overthinking on the gifted person's part, and the feeling of being different.

    I think maybe part of what you run into, CC, is the idea Udog referred to:

    I've only known a couple of ENFPs in my life, but this seems to be a common problem. ENFPs can be so fun and exciting on the surface that most people are happy to stop there and not dig deeper. It's frustrating to watch.
    and the fact that your opinions, even the ones you might not have a lot invested in, are expressed in such an adamant way that some people feel compelled to contradict you. I suspect sometimes you might just be putting something out there to sort it out yourself, or to get a good discussion going, but the strength of your personality is such that you could be easily misinterpreted. Just a hunch.

    I have a very close ENFP friend who often feels like she has to keep her happy face on--like that's what people really expect of her and want to see. But she is also prone to depression and self-flagellance. I think not feeling like she can express all sides of her true self makes her feel a bit isolated at times.

  6. #116
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You are 26 CC ? HAHA, I am younger !
    ..

    Wait that is not supposed to be an advantage.. well..ehrm...gotta go
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #117
    EvanTheClown (ETC) Clownmaster's Avatar
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    I get tired of being unique sometimes. Its harder to find people who can relate with you when your brain's elevator is a wonka-vator when most everyone else's only goes up and down. It can be very alienating.

    I'm not trying to sound elitist in any way saying that I can think in more directions than others, simply just stating the way my mind decided to help me word it

    Because you can't spell "Slaughter" without "Laughter"

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Any thoughts, opinions and, or advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Friendliness is the answer!

  9. #119
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I've only had two experiences with you, Captain Chick. The first was in my forum asking how Christians dealt with a puzzling issue. You jumped in, made a rude remark about Christians and disappeared.

    The second I noticed the other day when I responded to someone and you posted an expletive after my post.

    What was I to make of your expressed intelligence and sincerity and interest in interacting from those two observances?

    My thought was to disengage from you as someone who was defensive and disruptive to a flow of conversation. Not worth making an effort with.

    You can spend time refuting or explaining these reactions on my part but they are factual from my perspective. That's called defensiveness. It builds a wall between you and the person who is trying to communicate something to you. Others have mentioned that habit you have of disgarding their ideas.

    I made the assumption that you don't have time to listen thoughtfully to what I have to say. And perhaps you don't. That's as it is. However, posting something rude to me or others is also read by many other people who you may also be thoughtlessly putting off and not have become aware of that.

    I dunno. You may have a case of terminal uniqueness. Some people do. But in your case, you seem intelligent enough to be able to take feedback without the defensiveness you've shown.

    Do you have an alcoholic or addicted parent? Sometimes young people who do have these kinds of issues. If that's the case with you, there are groups for people with similar issues that can be of help.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  10. #120
    `~~Philosoflying~~` SillySapienne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I've only had two experiences with you, Captain Chick. The first was in my forum asking how Christians dealt with a puzzling issue. You jumped in, made a rude remark about Christians and disappeared.
    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    The other day I was talking to a man who declares himself to be a devoted Christian and he said something which shocked me. It was something to the effect that it doesn't matter what religion one professes "because it's all the same God anyway."

    I remember when political correctness began to take hold in popular culture and at that time I was still a practicing Christian. Tangled in the mess of p.c. I made an attempt to convince myself that this was a truism.

    The reason his statement shocked me was because I just realized for the first time that a Bible-believing Christian cannot make that statement without violating a tenet of their faith.

    I do understand the concept of an Ultimate Spirit which drives the universe but, unless one picks and chooses what to subscribe to and what to reinterpret in the Bible, according to scripture that would have to be the Triune God and none other.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    I appreciate respectful discussion of all views.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Inclusive as in Christianity being intrusive, (you're a sinner/Jesus saves), invasive, (you're a sinner/Jesus saves) and corrosive, (you're a sinner/Jesus saves), to society and mankind, yes.
    I was commenting on my views on Christianity. Not bashing Christians.

    My mother is a devout Christian and she is incredibly kind, I love and respect a couple of Christians, but Christianity as a whole?!?!?

    Sorry, but me really no likey.

    The second I noticed the other day when I responded to someone and you posted an expletive after my post.

    What was I to make of your expressed intelligence and sincerity and interest in interacting from those two observances?

    My thought was to disengage from you as someone who was defensive and disruptive to a flow of conversation. Not worth making an effort with..
    I am assuming you were referring to this incident:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mitzy View Post
    its not that
    im just hip
    and youre just
    well,
    old

    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    *makes note that apparently the Hannah Montana fanclub is now considered hip*

    And if 25 is old, I'm afraid your time of cooldom is running short- better start to prepare to be a square. (cool, I'm a poet! )
    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Chronology aside, our Mitzi is fifteen.

    The squeaky wheel gets the grease and Mitzi has found her greasers.

    Where's your wheels Girl?
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Oh shit!!!!!
    Notice how I DID NOT QUOTE YOU!!!

    My, "Oh Shit" was in reference to the Mitzy and Whatever posts that preceded yours!!

    `
    'Cause you can't handle me...

    "A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it." - David Stevens

    "That that is, is. That that is not, is not. Is that it? It is."

    Veritatem dies aperit

    Ride si sapis

    Intelligentle sparkles

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