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  1. #101
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    `
    "How glorious it is-and also how painful-to be an exception" Alfred DeMusset

    Two curses:

    I feel disconnected from most of my peers.

    And because of this I feel alienated and lonely, lonely, lonely.

    Gah!!!

    :sad:



    :steam:

    :sad:

    Any thoughts, opinions and, or advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Thoughts & Opinions: I've only known a couple of ENFPs in my life, but this seems to be a common problem. ENFPs can be so fun and exciting on the surface that most people are happy to stop there and not dig deeper. It's frustrating to watch.

    Advice: When you put so much hope and thought into what a person should be, it becomes easy to not appreciate them for who they are. Are you idealizing what a person should or could be?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainChick View Post
    Can a confident person not feel lonely, alienated, sad and frustrated?

    Are these feelings/emotions strictly reserved for the insecure?
    Confident people experience these emotions as well... the difference is that insecure people add fear, desperation, and powerlessness to the mix.

    Quote Originally Posted by disregard View Post
    I've solved the problem by immersing myself in my own solitary interests.. reading, writing, exercise, music...
    One advantage of being an INFP is that we can get away this when we fail to find genuine and mutual connections. With ENFPs I notice an intense pressure to find that connection, and frustration when they are unable to.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    i am somewhat of a lone (and only sometimes lonely) wolf, and although i am peculiar, i dont consider myself gifted... effectively, i think it is a choice i make through my behavior rather than a disadvantage forced on me as a result of peculiarity.

    i do not think it is that you expect too much of others, but rather that you expect too much of the degree that you will relate to them.

    whether someone is a special snowflake trying to find themselves in another, or merely suffering from the self-fulfilling consequences of wishing to be, it is no matter--even the most distinguished individuals have found peace. what is truly one-of-a-kind is our relationship with ourselves, until you reconcile that you are remediating the symptoms, not the sickness.

  3. #103
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    “Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer.”
    5w4 - Idiosyncratic/Leisurely/Dramatic
    It's the devil's way now.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kora View Post
    “Society often forgives the criminal; it never forgives the dreamer.”
    Back to your cell!

  5. #105
    Senior Member Kora's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    Back to your cell!
    5w4 - Idiosyncratic/Leisurely/Dramatic
    It's the devil's way now.

  6. #106
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kuranes View Post
    ( No, I am not trying to outdo Jennifer as a "peacemaker". That would be reaching for the moon. )
    ouch.

    (reads Kuranes post)

    Nope, I abdicate this one, you are definitely making more peace here than I was. You and ygolo can fight it out for peacewinner in this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What I dislike is that many people's advice is to conform. This is neither good for the individual, nor the group in the long-run. It may be necessary in the short-run, but in the long-run, it turns the group forcing conformity into an insular group that is very xenophobic, and it turns individuals who strain to conform to hate or leave the community.
    So, the bottom line: Is that what was happening here?
    (I didn't see it that way, at least not uniformly that way.)

    Or did you also just use this thread to stand on your own soapbox against the idea of conformity, which happens to be one of your pet issues? (Serious question, not snippy.)

    I'm all for non-conformity in general... but I'm not for non-conformity at the expense of others in a community setting.

    And I'm seeing most of this as a backlash where people probably finally vented some of what they've been thinking a long time. Perhaps it was inappropriate in some ways to the topic at hand and did become excessive; but it doesn't mean it should be dismissed as "an attempt at group conformity" as you seem to suggest here. I'd suggest just taking the feedback that was offered by various people for what it was worth.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #107
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ouch.
    I'm not being sarcastic.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  8. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    So, the bottom line: Is that what was happening here?
    (I didn't see it that way, at least not uniformly that way.)
    That's the way I saw it. I could be mistaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Or did you also just use this thread to stand on your own soapbox against the idea of conformity, which happens to be one of your pet issues? (Serious question, not snippy.)

    I'm all for non-conformity in general... but I'm not for non-conformity at the expense of others in a community setting.
    I am not a non-conformist per, say. But I do believe people tend toward becoming "mobish" when ideas strike a chord.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    And I'm seeing most of this as a backlash where people probably finally vented some of what they've been thinking a long time. Perhaps it was inappropriate in some ways to the topic at hand and did become excessive; but it doesn't mean it should be dismissed as "an attempt at group conformity" as you seem to suggest here. I'd suggest just taking the feedback that was offered by various people for what it was worth.
    I think there were a lot of things going on.

    I do believe a lot of people were offereing genuine advice.

    But the repeated message was "It is your responsibility to fit in." --which it is. At the same time, I saw a lot of "you are a misfit, see the problems you are causing?"

    Individuals will personally be be the last judge of what thier own motivations were, and I am certainly not going to argue that any particular person was motivated by a desire to agree with popular opinion and ganging-up on a (temporarily) unpoular member. But I find it hard to believe that so many people would feel the need to post essentially the same thing, with the intent of offering advice.

    In this case, the "group" was clearly mobish.

    I don't think any individual was thinking "let's make her conform," but people in general felt more free than usual take a posturing stance in thier posts, and I believe part of the reason was because there was a lot of activity with many people saying the samething.

    "Yeah, I agree with that, I'll post it too," turns into bashing of a minority opinon into submission which is rather innapropriate in a thread seeking advice, espeacially when it is the advicee holding the minority opinon.

    The topic of the thread was also about not fiting in, or feeling different. So in this case, the very advice, "you need to do the work to fit-in," (which is good) along with the dynamic of drowning out a minority opinon, was a message to "conform." (which is not so good)

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  9. #109
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    That's the way I saw it. I could be mistaken.



    I am not a non-conformist per, say. But I do believe people tend toward becoming "mobish" when ideas strike a chord.



    I think there were a lot of things going on.

    I do believe a lot of people were offereing genuine advice.

    But the repeated message was "It is your responsibility to fit in." --which it is. At the same time, I saw a lot of "you are a misfit, see the problems you are causing?"

    Individuals will personally be be the last judge of what thier own motivations were, and I am certainly not going to argue that any particular person was motivated by a desire to agree with popular opinion and ganging-up on a (temporarily) unpoular member. But I find it hard to believe that so many people would feel the need to post essentially the same thing, with the intent of offering advice.

    In this case, the "group" was clearly mobish.

    I don't think any individual was thinking "let's make her conform," but people in general felt more free than usual take a posturing stance in thier posts, and I believe part of the reason was because there was a lot of activity with many people saying the samething.

    "Yeah, I agree with that, I'll post it too," turns into bashing of a minority opinon into submission which is rather innapropriate in a thread seeking advice, espeacially when it is the advicee holding the minority opinon.

    The topic of the thread was also about not fiting in, or feeling different. So in this case, the very advice, "you need to do the work to fit-in," (which is good) along with the dynamic of drowning out a minority opinon, was a message to "conform." (which is not so good)
    Could you be more concrete? In what way was the 'group' being 'mobbish'?

    As someone who posted rather often in this thread, I would like to say a couple of things to clarify.

    Speaking only for myself, I was trying to give my ideas on the issue as fairly and clearly as I could. True, I don't mince words, but I also did not want to hurt anyone's feelings or 'force' someone into a certain way of thinking. Since I think Chick is also very much like that, I thought she would understand that and not take it personally.

    Heck, I don't even know Chick in real life. Why would I try to 'mob' her or 'mold' her behavior? Her life really does not affect mine, to be blunt.

    Because there are a lot of lessons to be learned in life, I thought I would relate my personal experience. In my view, it seemed to mirror her thoughts and feelings.

    If it is not useful to her, she can/has the right to/should ignore whatever I said. If it is helpful, good. It's her decision to listen to me or not. No one is forcing her to conform or act a certain way - it's just an opinion. After all, she mentioned it in a public, not private, thread, so I assumed she wanted general, constructive opinions. I tried to be constructive as possible, and I was met with total antagonism, which I admit, I overreacted to, perhaps.

    In addition, I did support whatever views I found particularly good; however, I do that with all the posts, not just with Chick. So....how was that ganging up on her? I do that in psychology, history, politics, health, and every other topic. If someone phrases something in a particularly good fashion that I cannot seem to coherently express at any given time, I will support that person rather than reiterating. Or I will reiterate from time to time to emphasize something.

    Just to clarify and misunderstandings....
    If you are interested in language, words, linguistics, or foreign languages, check out my blog and read, post, and/or share.

  10. #110
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Hmm... I must say, I don't think this conversation has gone in a particularly useful direction.

    It seems to me that everyone keeps missing an important part of everyone else's meaning, and then projects their own negative assumptions onto the other, resulting in argument and feelings of offense. The problem is that people aren't giving one another the benefit of the doubt here about their intentions.

    I think CaptainChick's first mistake was to refer to herself as gifted. Due to the context and history of this forum, that was a very poor choice of words... there have been too many egocentric intellectual types here complaining about society and their struggles with people, and as a result of the backlash against that due to thinning patience with such expressions, people were hypersensitive to that archetype, quick to see it even if it wasn't there, and to dismiss it as a lack of maturity.

    In reality, I think CC's post had very little to do with that. Rather, she was simply looking to be related to. She wanted to know that other people here understood how she felt, for people to express their own feelings and thoughts on their situation if they had some that were similar to hers, in not being understood by the majority of people around them. Perhaps she also wanted thoughts on how it was that she was different, and how she might find people who shared more of her interests, due to her lack of fulfillment in her current group of acquaintances.





    The majority of people here responded in one of three ways:

    1. They fixated on her reference to being "gifted" and immediately related it to their own thoughts/feelings about themselves (whom they perceived as normal people) being dismissed by an aristocratic/cliquish group, and decided she was one of "them," just coming here to glorify the merits of her own group and their struggles with the "commoners."

    2. They decided that it was due to a lack of maturity and an egocentric personality... that she simply wasn't open to other people, and was putting up a facade, needing to be different, and thus being unable to relate to the people around her due to not being willing to come to their level.

    3. They dismissed her as a whiny loser who was needy of attention and sympathy, and pathetically wanting to share their feelings with everyone else. There was some truth in this one... but I've found it's a rather callous viewpoint.





    CC herself, of course, was not blameless... she did make some errors in presenting herself:

    1. She referred to herself as "gifted," using an emotionally charged word where a more neutral one might have better conveyed her meaning.

    2. She was understandably upset when people misinterpreted her meaning in the first place, and failed to retain her composure in responding, which resulted in the confirmation of the assumptions of those who had misjudged her meaning/intentions in the first place (interpreting the pain/anger as denial and protection of personal illusions). If she had remained cool and responded more sympathetically and carefully to their interpretation while explaining why she didn't agree with it, they might well have turned their assessment around.

    3. She took more and more things personally as the thread went on, until it degenerated into her defending herself from anyone who didn't agree with her, because she felt too threatened to stop and examine herself or others carefully, and just got trapped in reacting emotionally and defensively to everything, using more emotionally charged language that wasn't thought out, and pretty much saying the first thing that popped into her head.






    So... I would say there was a lot of misunderstanding and jumping to conclusions due to past experience on both sides. I hope that we can improve from this kind of behavior, as it doesn't seem conducive to research, mutual understanding, or good discussion.

    Does that make sense?

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