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  1. #1
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Question How abstract is too abstract?

    The purpose of this thread is to provide the place for me to find out what people feel/think about abstract things.


    It looks to me that I have huge problems when I am talking to sensors.
    I am very abstract person but because of that people have trouble in understanding me. (even the Ns)

    So I am interested at what level things get to abstract for sensor. I know that there are many kinds of sensors but for now I will just treat them as one group.

    Is it when I say

    1.That entire system is unstable.

    2.That this not going to work because step 17 is undefined so that could slow the process in step 21 what will create deficit of x that will grow until step 26 where will be system breakdown and all other steps will give incomplete data/result.

    3.That their grand,grand,grand,grand..............parents that lived 400 millions of years ago were fish that lived in oceans that no longer exist because continents are on the move.

    4.That everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense.

    This is probably enough to get us started.

  2. #2
    Senor Membrane
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    I don't know about sensors, but for me the limit was reached when I tried to make sense of Spinoza's "Ethics". It also might be because of my imperfect english. But it was pretty abstract.

  3. #3
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The purpose of this thread is to provide the place for me to find out what people feel/think about abstract things.


    It looks to me that I have huge problems when I am talking to sensors.
    I am very abstract person but because of that people have trouble in understanding me. (even the Ns)

    So I am interested at what level things get to abstract for sensor. I know that there are many kinds of sensors but for now I will just treat them as one group.
    First of all, realize that even though grasping abstract concepts may be difficult for S's, we may still enjoy thinking about them.
    Is it when I say

    1.That the entire system is unstable.
    Well, that's really...discomforting. I would rather stick to the system if it works, but if it doesn't I need to know. Then we need to talk about how to fix it. If you tell me my "system" of doing things is "unstable" just because you know it and you want me to know it, but you don't offer a solution or suggestion, unfortunately you're probably going to get on my bad side.

    If you're just talking about a structure of thinking, it will still be discomforting, because I build based on systems, and if you knock a block out of the bottom of the pyramid, it means I have to put work back into all that... It's annoying, but useful once we learn to appreciate the insight.

    2.That this not going to work because step 17 is undefined so that could slow the process in step 21 what will create deficit of x that will grow until step 26 where will be system breakdown and all other steps will give incomplete data/result.
    Better than Situation 1 given above. The only issue is maybe hurt feelings.
    3.That their grand,grand,grand,grand..............parents that lived 400 millions of years ago were fish that lived in oceans that no longer exist because continents are on the move.
    There's no problem with you saying that. That kind of stuff is interesting to think about, especially when I'm not preoccupied with more immediate tasks. But nothing really comes from that--the question here is "So what?" Unless the problem for the S is that it challenges his system, in which case, what I said in Situations 1 and 2 applies.
    4.That everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense.
    I've thought about that a lot on my own. I've talked about it with others. Unfortunately, even more so than Situation 3 above, there seems to be nothing you can do about it. It really is fascinating to think about, but...then what? After you're done thinking about it, what do you do with that information?This is probably enough to get us started.
    I don't feel that I really accomplished much in typing this response to your post, but I hope it helps in some way. Either way, it was fun to participate in your survey.

    And this should be obvious, but don't expect my answers to speak for all S's. The others will be here shortly, I hope.
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-08-2008 at 04:57 AM. Reason: disclaimer
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #4
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Antisocial, you have to provide more framework for others, when speaking of matters specific to your general areas of interest. As you cannot possibly know everything that interests your audience, so too is your audience unable to arbitrarily appreciate everything that inspires you.

    From the sounds of it, this is less an issue about being "abstract", than one of providing basic context.

  5. #5
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Antisocial, you have to provide more framework for others, when speaking of matters specific to your general areas of interest. As you cannot possibly know everything that interests your audience, so too is your audience unable to arbitrarily appreciate everything that inspires you.

    From the sounds of it, this is less an issue about being "abstract", than one of providing context.
    If you have something other in mind post it.

    I have started the thread this way and I am hoping that it will evolve with time.

    Examples 3 and 4 are from my personal intererest but it looks to me that S people have problems with those two so I have posted them.

    Context is question "How do you deal with abstract things?"

  6. #6
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    If you have something other in mind post it.

    I have started the thread this way and I am hoping that it will evolve with time.

    Examples 3 and 4 are from my personal intererest but it looks to me that S people have problems with those two so I have posted them.

    Context is question "How do you deal with abstract things?"
    I'm aware of your premise, Antisocial.

    Can you explain why you believe Sensors are at an inherent disadvantage to handle your "abstraction", such that it is?

    I think your response might offer direction to your basic belief, while further illustrating that the issue is less about S/N dichotomies, and more about proper explication.

  7. #7
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Night, if you want, and if Antisocial One doesn't mind, you could rephrase what he's asking, if you think that'll accomplish something.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  8. #8
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    you can never be too abstract for me. i have fun decoding abstract things, and i'm a pretty abstract person myself. it's part of my training i guess. when i'm with my S friends though (and there's pretty much always at least one there) i stick to the very S topics like what's on TV or how school's going for them. it takes 2 to tango anyways, there no point for me to talk about say, phenomenal character when my audience couldn't even understand what that means even if i tried explaining it to them.

    edit: i like point 4 very much. that's the epistemology branch of philosophy right there. i think this question is pretty much off limits around too many sensors. i have noticed that N's take this question a lot more seriously, even if they do think 'what can i do about it'. in fact, i've known a guy who was gonna kill himself because he just didn't know what was real anymore and didn't see the point of living. he found the bible though, and through his theology he has regained faith.

  9. #9
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    when i'm with my S friends though (and there's pretty much always at least one there) i stick to the very S topics like what's on TV or how school's going for them.
    I hear this a lot around here. Is this really all S's like to talk about? The mundane things in life?

    I don't want to derail this thread, though. We can keep it tied to the OP subject, I think.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  10. #10
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Well, that's really...discomforting. I would rather stick to the system if it works, but if it doesn't I need to know. Then we need to talk about how to fix it. If you tell me my "system" of doing things is "unstable" just because you know it and you want me to know it, but you don't offer a solution or suggestion, unfortunately you're probably going to get on my bad side.

    If you're just talking about a structure of thinking, it will still be discomforting, because I build based on systems, and if you knock a block out of the bottom of the pyramid, it means I have to put work back into all that... It's annoying, but useful once we learn to appreciate the insight.
    Of course that I will give you the explanation for my thinking. Probably even too long explanation.

    Better than Situation 1 given above. The only issue is maybe hurt feelings.
    Why hurt feeling? (very curious)

    I've thought about that a lot on my own. I've talked about it with others. Unfortunately, even more so than Situation 3 above, there seems to be nothing you can do about it. It really is fascinating to think about, but...then what? After you're done thinking about it, what do you do with that information?
    You are joking,right?
    I know that my reply will be brutal but I can't help it.

    If my knowledge is correct our entire civilization is build upon this.

    The most obvious part is that this way of thinking allows you to understand the concept of nuclear energy what is far from something unsignifican from civil or military perspective.

    For another example right now: I am studing how to use x-ray on cristals to determine chemical composition. What in the end could mean that the price of that cristal is not 2$ but 20 000$ (and I have bought is for 10$). What is hardly from unsignifican once again.

    I could get many more examples but I think that this is enought to prove my point.

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