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  1. #81
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    I'm beginning to think what people mean by abstract is:

    "Do you find the same things interesting that I find interesting?"

    Example: I'm trying to wrap my Ti-starved brain around the basic mechanics of this financial crisis. So I'm putzing around on teh internetz trying to find out what the hell is going on. I run into this godawful stuff about collateralized mortgage obligation CMO and my vision went a little blurry. I tried to finish it, but I just couldn't. Now if I ran across a person (let's say this person is an INT) and they started talking to me about it I'd politely listen for a few bars then I'd just have to change the subject or get out of the conversation. I'm sorry, I don't care about that particular vein of conversation.

    Now if the conversation mutated over to the effect of the financial crisis on people and all that good Fe stuff my interest would probably spring to the surface and I'd be willing to entertain more "abstract" musings concerning this aspect of the topic.

    I wonder do people think it's possible to pull an abstract quality out of virtually any topic. Take these subjects and make an abstract conversation about it:

    1. Kitchen appliances/power tools
    2. Consumerism
    3. Toilet paper
    4. Mental illness

    I've had some great conversations about kitchen appliances and toilet paper.
    Relationships have normal ebbs and flows. They do not automatically get better and better when the participants learn more and more about each other. Instead, the participants have to work through the tensions of the relationship (the dialectic) while they learn and group themselves and a parties in a relationships. At times the relationships is very open and sharing. Other time, one or both parties to the relationship need their space, or have other concerns, and the relationship is less open. The theory posits that these cycles occur throughout the life of the relationship as the persons try to balance their needs for privacy and open relationship.
    Interpersonal Communication Theories and Concepts
    Social Penetration Theory 1
    Social Penetration Theory 2
    Social Penetration Theory 3

  2. #82
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    I can make anything as abstract and weird as you wish, though questions of relevance arise.

  3. #83
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    You are probably right but I am much more skilled in my language and that is not helping me to say some things.

    Ah, sorry, didn't realise English wasn't native. That's very understandable.


    I have no problem with any of the statements you made in your OP, FWIW.

    However, I would take none at face value, and the probability of each is dependent on the distance between the assumptions.

    1.That entire system is unstable.
    I don't really believe systems are unstable - I believe they are in a state of flux. However, the point is still the same.

    The statement doesn't bother me, but it doesn't bring any meaning either. It's like saying "apples are red" - I just keep staring, going... and?

    2.That this not going to work because step 17 is undefined so that could slow the process in step 21 what will create deficit of x that will grow until step 26 where will be system breakdown and all other steps will give incomplete data/result.
    No problem. If you can trace the problem, I don't even blink. Keep in mind that the ability to keep up will differ among people - everything IQ to systems training will matter.

    3.That their grand,grand,grand,grand..............parents that lived 400 millions of years ago were fish that lived in oceans that no longer exist because continents are on the move.
    No problem, although I tend to get the "and apples are red" thing happening again.

    4.That everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense.
    Meh. My reality is good enough - it's what I have to work with

  4. #84
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    I wonder do people think it's possible to pull an abstract quality out of virtually any topic.
    I also think that anything can be turned into abstract since everything can be linked to physics.

  5. #85
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I find your reply quite interesting.
    Why would you get more paranoid over something like this? I got to ask since you are not the first sensor who said something like this to me.
    Plus you signature is quite interesting in this context.
    Well I'd think discovering everything you ever knew was wrong would be a tad unsettling. If I decided I was wrong about the fundamental nature of reality I'd naturally have to examine everything else I took for granted. I don't think that's an N/S thing, though.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Also I don't understand way you say that this information is useless. In the case you are not a scientist this information is useless to you but in general it is not.
    It's useless because what are you actually going to do about it? So the entire system of life, the universe, and everything is unstable. If true then it's worth knowing, but in any case there really isn't anything you can do about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    The science actually begins at the point where S starts to lose itself.(more or less)
    I am professionally into science and there is no way I can end my education without understanding that our picture of reality is an illusion.


    I think that there is no knowledge that is useless. It is just that the purpose/use is not obvious.
    Knowledge is in general very useful, but I'm more interested in learning about more relevant topics and then less relevant topics later on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    On the other hand if language can explain something without problem then that thing is no longer abstract.
    Agreed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    By example 4 I don't mean that the world is an ilusion I mean that our picture of it is. I am talking here about: atoms , structure of cristals , the idea that time and space are relative........... and it looks to me that all of that has something anti S in it.
    Right, you mean our perception of reality is inaccurate. It would be very unlikely to get a sensor to agree to that.

    But again, it doesn't really matter either way because there isn't anything you could do about it. Rejecting everything you believed in because you theorize your picture of reality is an illusion... is a bit silly.
    No offense.

  6. #86
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Q? Q is a superb conversationalist: he's a hyperintelligent superbeing with an IQ of 2005.

    A Borg drone is without essential agency - there's absolutely no freedom of intellectual movement available to any, save the Queen.

    The Borg represent collectivism; hive-mindedness. Q is profoundly individualistic.
    I understand your confusion.

    The paradox is that the only way to get some very abstract idea out is by writting since there is much data and even more interaction.
    But my english talking skills are actualy much better then writing skills.

    If you want to have a verbal debate with me on my native language you will find that I am not an easy target.
    From everything I have said it is logical to presume that my verbal skills are bad but they are not.

    I am very introverted so I keep my mouth shut most of the time so my debting skills can come as a suprise.

    Why Q and Borg?

    Q because I judge humanity from the perspective of the third person and I am harsh in doing that. Plus I am quite expressed individual.


    Borg because if I don't pretend to be more "normal" I scare other people simply because I suck at empathy and F/Fe. On the other hand the conscience of the collective is quite scientific and strategic.


    I am so introverted not because I have social anxiety but because that is the only way for me to be what I am. Since I must be social from time to time purely from logical perspective I play games.

  7. #87
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    What makes you think that I am interesting?
    Because you are abstract.

  8. #88
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Yes! I'm so glad people kept this thread alive.

    What do you guys think of this question? I mean, how would you answer it? I'd like to open the question to everybody:
    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    One stupid question, how would you describe your sight?
    Now to Antisocial one:
    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one
    I think that there is no knowledge that is useless. It is just that the purpose/use is not obvious.

    On the other hand if language can explain something without problem then that thing is no longer abstract.

    By example 4 I don't mean that the world is an ilusion I mean that our picture of it is. I am talking here about: atoms , structure of crystals , the idea that time and space are relative........... and it looks to me that all of that has something anti S in it.
    I agree with all of this, but the big question is still "So what? How is that applicable?" I think sometimes S's do understand abstract concepts, and even like to ponder them--but ideas that are immediately applicable are most important; ideas that may be applicable are kind of important, but not as much; ideas that probably cannot be applied any time soon are not important, even if they are interesting, and even if they fun/exciting to think about. That doesn't change the fact that you can't do anything with them at the moment, and therefore they are not important. Immediately applicable ideas come first, abstract ideas come during leisure time. (maybe)
    Last edited by Cimarron; 10-08-2008 at 07:05 PM. Reason: most of the content
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  9. #89
    Senior Member kuranes's Avatar
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    The word "abstraction" can mean many things. Sometimes it means generalizations. Sometimes generalizations are called for, versus "bottom level" details, or mid-range items. Sometimes they are not. It's like saying "Why is a hammer appropriate?" "How could it be made more appropriate? " etc. without context ( as was said ) of what situation is possibly calling for that as a tool. Even though the situation that might need a tool is in "flux" one should still be able to summarize its current state effectively enough ( by focusing on the priorities of the people being asked the question in the first place ) that we can see whether it is in fact appropriate or "good", as the questions would be meaningless without this information.

    As far as making the picture of the "system" in question so big as to include the nature of reality, and all the future, or cyclical infinity etc., in most cases I think that we could easily say that is "too abstract". It might be appropriate to bring up such questions in a talk about the big bang and alternative notions of God etc. versus a discussion on building a house, for example, and so the context is very important.

    To the OP - there is no "debate" in this thread, unless you were hoping that people would see your obtuse answers themselves as being "too abstract" and thus perhaps making a joke about recursiveness, which you expected people to catch and speak equally vaguely about. No one even knows what you are really asking. When you speak of a "system" are you talking about the universe or a work situation ? People at work will assume you are talking about work, and not the universe.
    "The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them that they are being attacked and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
    Reichsfuhrer Herman Goering at the Nuremburg trials.

  10. #90
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people assume that others aren't capable of understanding abstraction, when really, they're just not providing enough context or detail to allow ANYONE to understand them. You have to say what you mean, not give a cryptic sentence or two and expect everyone else to connect the dots.

    I agree with protean--much of the time, it's just that your interests don't mix. I don't think I'd have much interest in pursuing any of the topics in the OP.

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