User Tag List

First 67891018 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 193

  1. #71
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    761

    Default

    Too abstract for me is when I don't know enough about the frame work, so I don't know how to approach the subject or how to understand it. I am after all coming from my own stand point. Then I'm most likely going to approach the subject so that I'll be talking about the fence and the other person about the stake of the fence or wise versa.
    Or when I simply lack interest in the subject.

  2. #72
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Communication is the most critical part of any concept. Your mind is your playground for now, but as time goes on and you want to build it to more than that, you'll need to start to translate your ideas into firm concepts.

    The general approach is to start writing. Use as many words as you need, but link each sentance together in baby steps. If it takes thousands of words, use thousands. Don't short cut.

    Then begin to slice and dice, then rewrite. It'll get smaller and you'll learn how to communicate big ideas in small concepts.


    I think that doing that would be effective because your language is sloppy. For example;

    The main reason why I have opened this thread is exactly because I have huge problems in begin understood and I think that verbal training will not solve anything since things that are my interests are very abstract.
    So once you put something into words that is no longer what it suppose to be and almost everybody are still clueless about what are you talking about.


    Can be written:

    The reason I started this thread is because I have problems being understood. I'm not sure if verbal training will will help me since the topics I cover tend to be abstract. Once I put them into words, the abstract meaning I had in my mind isn't properly described and I can't convey to others what I am thinking.

    The first contains many mistakes that make it impossible to grab nuance from your words. That's a clear communication issue, not a compexity issue.
    You are probably right but I am much more skilled in my language and that is not helping me to say some things.

    Actually the writting is the only way which alows me to get my point across.
    In my head everything is connected so it can be hard/impossible to represent some ideas in full meaning and short form. Also there is too much data for entire thing to be said in normal conversations.


    Often people say that I have a hole somewhere but that is because I don't want to be boring.
    If I start creating posts in the size they should be in, everbody will call me
    Anti-social wing.


    Maybe I should do something that is on my mind for months.

  3. #73

    Default

    I believe I have many of the same issues as you. I may have used English for more time than you, but I still don't habitually use the rules of grammar, or follow the elements of style.

    I also generally think in diagrams, equations, and "play-back" of conversations or events. English is not my language of thought, so it requires translation.

    I think you should aim to be as concrete as is pragmatic. I don't think it matters if you are talking to an iNtuitive or a Sensor.

    People will not always share the same abstractions as you, while details that are unnecessary are distracting.

    It has less to do with being "too" abstract, and more with chosing the proper abstraction.

    Unless one abstraction is clearly a removal of details from another, I don't think you can always decide which one is "more" abstract.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #74
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    1,962

    Default

    abstraction is prone to being detrimental both in topic and style. i have no problem with abstraction, just inapplicability and inefficiency.

    and when people confuse one with the other; meaning (what is purported) without purpose is ultimately meaningless (lacking significance)...

    unless abstraction is needed to explain something that couldnt be conveyed through more concrete means, and being more difficult to understand due to inherent interpretational variance, why reduce communicative efficiency if you dont need to?


    of course, proponents will insist that others "simply dont understand"

  5. #75
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,741

    Default

    I think a great grasp of language can be a very good conduit in translating personal thoughts to others. My dad also an INTJ also often has feelings similar to yours and I always tell him if he wasn't so pretentious about mathematics and science( I think the hang up is the subjectivity of Humanties/Social sciences) that he would be a much better communicator.

    Personally I'm sort of in a similar boat, I did actually grow up in English speaking societies for a considerable portion of my life but I think my ability to read sort of allowed me to gloss over my inadequacies in speaking and writing. I grew up speaking only my native language and as soon as I moved to England I somehow learned enough to be competent in reading and writing without to much ESL help. As the years went on I realized how much of the intricacies of grammar and general syntax I genuinely didn't grasp, that aspect considerably effected my ability to communicate both verbally and orally in a concise and easily understandable way.

    To this day I still make it a point to strive towards concision at all times, seriously that was a massive cause of the miscommunication. I used to think it was just that my thoughts were too complex and abstract till I understood how frustrating it is to try and understand a point hidden in a whole bustle of words, even if the overall point is excellent and insightful.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  6. #76
    Senior Member 6sticks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    MBTI
    istp
    Posts
    424

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Is it when I say

    1.That entire system is unstable.
    Need an example.

    2.That this not going to work because step 17 is undefined so that could slow the process in step 21 what will create deficit of x that will grow until step 26 where will be system breakdown and all other steps will give incomplete data/result.
    That makes sense, assuming it makes sense.

    3.That their grand,grand,grand,grand..............parents that lived 400 millions of years ago were fish that lived in oceans that no longer exist because continents are on the move.
    Yeah, I know.

    4.That everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense.
    I know what you mean, but I disagree. It can't be proven either way, and if that view was widely adopted the justice system would fail, for starters.

    This is probably enough to get us started.
    I think the best way to be understood by sensors is to think about what you could do about the result before you ask the question. For example, saying "everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense" is mostly useless because you can't do anything with the information, besides grow increasingly paranoid and lash out at small animals. Saying "this not going to work because step 17 is undefined so that could slow the process in step 21 what will create deficit of x that will grow until step 26 where will be system breakdown and all other steps will give incomplete data/result" is useful because you can fix the problem.
    No offense.

  7. #77
    Senior Member Simplexity's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,741

    Default

    Personally I like talking to sensors because it gives me food for thought. I could never recreate an actual real life scenario with a high degree of accuracy, so I really appreciate it when I have that other aspect to give me freedom to try and merge both worlds(heavily weighted towards the abstract). Seriously though, 90% percent of my friends are probably sensors and they give me the freedom to be in the back seat and just interject when I see fit. its great.
    My cold, snide, intellectual life is just a veneer, behind which lies the plywood of loneliness.

  8. #78
    Wannabe genius Splittet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Posts
    632

    Default

    Interesting topic. I know you wanted S replies, but I guess you will just have to do with our N replies.

    As far as too abstract goes, I think too abstract is connections that I don't get, cannot comprehend, and because of that, what is too abstract constantly changes, when you learn and understand new things. One could also talk about an abstraction limit, the point where a person no longer has the mental capacity to understand something, even after having repeatedly tried as hard as possible. Just like there is a limit to your memory span (number of chunks you can remember in your working memory, typically 7+-2), there should be a limit to this.

    As far as #1 and #2 goes you give no context, so those statements are meaningless.

    #3 makes sense though. Seems very simple to me. As far as #4 goes I don't think we can really now, but I choose to see it differently. I think what we see are practical and efficient representations of the world. Why do I believe that? The answer is evolution. Humans would not survive if all they saw where illusions, your senses have to give a good representation of the world, or you die. The representation is not the same you would use in science, but everything still has a basis reality. The color green is for example a representation of a certain light frequency. It's no more wrong than representing language through letters. By the way, while evolutionary psychology predicts we comprehend sensory input rather precisely, I think it also predicts certain philosophical biases. You don't have to see the world in a correct philosophical light to be evolutionary successful, quite on the contrary. You should find meaning and comfort where there is none, like humans do in God, and you should be more optimistic than there is reason to, which people are... ( Optimism bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia )
    "Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius." - Wolfgang Amadé Mozart

  9. #79
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Here is why I have chosen that 4 examples.

    The example 1 is to determine how would sensor react on that sentence.

    The example 2. is obvious

    The example 3. is there to see how sensor feels/thinks about something what is controversial, abstract , creepy in some ways, abstract.

    The example 4. was placed here to check out reaction of sensors when you attack his/her S.


    I think the best way to be understood by sensors is to think about what you could do about the result before you ask the question. For example, saying "everything you see and hear are just illusions created by your brain and that reality is quite different from what you sense" is mostly useless because you can't do anything with the information, besides grow increasingly paranoid and lash out at small animals.
    I find your reply quite interesting.
    Why would you get more paranoid over something like this? I got to ask since you are not the first sensor who said something like this to me.
    Plus you signature is quite interesting in this context.


    Also I don't understand way you say that this information is useless. In the case you are not a scientist this information is useless to you but in general it is not.
    The science actually begins at the point where S starts to lose itself.(more or less)
    I am professionally into science and there is no way I can end my education without understanding that our picture of reality is an illusion.

    I think that there is no knowledge that is useless. It is just that the purpose/use is not obvious.

    On the other hand if language can explain something without problem then that thing is no longer abstract.

    By example 4 I don't mean that the world is an ilusion I mean that our picture of it is. I am talking here about: atoms , structure of cristals , the idea that time and space are relative........... and it looks to me that all of that has something anti S in it.

  10. #80
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    135 so/sp
    Posts
    8,697

    Default

    Interesting topic. I know you wanted S replies, but I guess you will just have to do with our N replies.
    Both S and N are welcome into this thread.

Similar Threads

  1. How soon is too soon to be eating "heart healthy"?
    By funkadelik in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 85
    Last Post: 03-19-2011, 01:56 PM
  2. Replies: 15
    Last Post: 03-16-2011, 11:35 AM
  3. How old is too old for trick-or-treating?
    By ayoitsStepho in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: 11-03-2010, 11:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO