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  1. #61
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    You're also crazy to accept such insane lumpings of people. That would be like saying roughly 12 states in the middle of the US are all collectively developing a new accent. I don't think you realize how big some of the states out here are.

    Some in the north has a curious accent, some in the middle have a rural one, too. There is no standard, though, and you have to split it on culture, not even on color, because it doesn't divide cultures. However, the most common is rather neutral. My theory is that this is because people migrated here from everywhere, especially in Los Angeles. NYC and the northeast in general ended up with nasty-sounding accents because many immigrants didn't speak English. However, Los Angeles ended up with a smooth, neutral, non-accent because everyone that already spoke English moved there and it merged in their children. Today you have second, third, and fourth generation people that grew up in an environment where there was no real local accent. That's how you end up with no accent, or a neutral one.
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    You're also crazy to accept such insane lumpings of people. That would be like saying roughly 12 states in the middle of the US are all collectively developing a new accent. I don't think you realize how big some of the states out here are.

    Some in the north has a curious accent, some in the middle have a rural one, too. There is no standard, though, and you have to split it on culture, not even on color, because it doesn't divide cultures. However, the most common is rather neutral. My theory is that this is because people migrated here from everywhere, especially in Los Angeles. NYC and the northeast in general ended up with nasty-sounding accents because many immigrants didn't speak English. However, Los Angeles ended up with a smooth, neutral, non-accent because everyone that already spoke English moved there and it merged in their children. Today you have second, third, and fourth generation people that grew up in an environment where there was no real local accent. That's how you end up with no accent, or a neutral one.
    Yes I do and if you actually did some independent research you would see what I mean by a new accent is developing, I would never assert that everyone from the same area has the exact same accent, for example in Iowa we have the General American accent, that is prevalent in most of the state, however up north near MN and WI you have the nordic based accent, some people near the MO border and Southern IL border speak with a Southern accent, while in some of the bigger cities you have ghetto accents too.

    The reason that the General American is what it is has two main reasons:

    1. Most of the newscasters used that style of language, Walter Cronkite, for example, was from MO and only hired people with the same accent.

    2. It is by far the most neutral, using mainly the pronunciation of words straight from the dictionary.

    This is why it is considered standard and the people that speak it don't think of it as an accent. This is also why it should be used in a business setting as the common vernacular.
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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opivy1980 View Post
    Yes I do and if you actually did some independent research you would see what I mean by a new accent is developing, I would never assert that everyone from the same area has the exact same accent, for example in Iowa we have the General American accent, that is prevalent in most of the state, however up north near MN and WI you have the nordic based accent, some people near the MO border and Southern IL border speak with a Southern accent, while in some of the bigger cities you have ghetto accents too.
    Why do I even respond to your flaming piles of shit? I guess I hate ignorant fucktards.

    The reason that the General American is what it is has two main reasons:
    Both bullshit, and I'll explain.

    1. Most of the newscasters used that style of language, Walter Cronkite, for example, was from MO and only hired people with the same accent.
    So, because person X had accent Y that they thought was the best, it became the standard. Seems stupid to me, and doesn't reflect reality. It was actually far more scientific than that, and it was definitely MI. This new range of "General American" is pretty sad, when it covers an area with a fraction of a percent of the population in a country with a few hundred million people. How can you call it that when nobody lives there?

    2. It is by far the most neutral, using mainly the pronunciation of words straight from the dictionary.
    Except it isn't neutral and the pronunciations are not "straight from the dictionary", because the dictionary doesn't have correct/incorrect pronunciations, it just has possible ones. If you can even vaguely understand the person, they're using one of the pronunciations in the dictionary. It's a mix of specific local choices in pronunciation, but it's hardly a standard.

    This is why it is considered standard and the people that speak it don't think of it as an accent.
    A standard does not cover a fraction of one percent of the population. Bunch of farmers that imagine themselves important, if you ask me. If you have such a perfect accent, record 10-20 pages of text and post it both. If they believe it, I can believe it, and more people would likely agree with me in a random blind polling.

    This is also why it should be used in a business setting as the common vernacular.
    Is there even a real national business in the area that little blob covers? We're talking about a blob over some farmland in the north-central US... I would believe it if there were call centers and other semi-outsourced things there, but I would be surprised if the businesses were based there. It would be more reasonable to base them in nearby cities in MN, WI, IL, etc.

    According to en.wp (hard to trust), which may be correct, General American is spoken by many people in various places in the US, most english-speaking Canadians, and yet, it also mentions that Canada and California have a similar vowel shift. This may explain why the women there sound normal, men sound a little funny, and people can't tell I'm from the US by my "accent". Then again, I get that everywhere I go, except the East, but I hate the east, so I am glad they don't think I'm from around there.

    Furthermore, they're all linked with RP through each-other, which is the true "accent-less" English as identified by basically everyone in the English-speaking world.

    I will admit to one freaky departure from RP, though, and that's the fact that my "a" sounds Latin in some words, such as words in languages that descended from Latin. This is the only thing that they ever found incorrect... "Pasta" is a prime example of one of these weird pronunciations.

    Pronounce "pasta" for me among the other text you read and I'll tell you if you're actually "neutral".
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    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Opivy1980's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Wolf;26195]Why do I even respond to your flaming piles of shit? I guess I hate ignorant fucktards.[QUOTE]

    First of all reverting to an emotional response just shows how weak you really are.

    [QUOTE=Wolf;26195]Both bullshit, and I'll explain.

    So, because person X had accent Y that they thought was the best, it became the standard. Seems stupid to me, and doesn't reflect reality. It was actually far more scientific than that, and it was definitely MI. This new range of "General American" is pretty sad, when it covers an area with a fraction of a percent of the population in a country with a few hundred million people. How can you call it that when nobody lives there?[QUOTE]

    I'm not the one that decided the standard I am explaining what reality is, it really doesn't matter what you think or I think the standard "should" be, that is what it is.

    [QUOTE]Except it isn't neutral and the pronunciations are not "straight from the dictionary", because the dictionary doesn't have correct/incorrect pronunciations, it just has possible ones. If you can even vaguely understand the person, they're using one of the pronunciations in the dictionary. It's a mix of specific local choices in pronunciation, but it's hardly a standard.[QUOTE]

    Show me a dictionary entry that has multiple pronunciations listed for different regions of the country. That statement you made is flat out stupid.

    [QUOTE]A standard does not cover a fraction of one percent of the population. Bunch of farmers that imagine themselves important, if you ask me. If you have such a perfect accent, record 10-20 pages of text and post it both. If they believe it, I can believe it, and more people would likely agree with me in a random blind polling.[QUOTE]

    As I stated you can close your eyes and pretend in your world that General American isn't the standard but wishing something doesn't make it true. I would love to see how you would react to somebody trying to carry on a business conversation saying things like "Why my refun not come yet?" Or "Y'all di in sen me dat" This is what people who are trying to get business resolved sound like in my profession and they are supposed to have been college students.

    [QUOTE]Is there even a real national business in the area that little blob covers? We're talking about a blob over some farmland in the north-central US... I would believe it if there were call centers and other semi-outsourced things there, but I would be surprised if the businesses were based there. It would be more reasonable to base them in nearby cities in MN, WI, IL, etc.[QUOTE]

    What a stupid question, you must be inbred to think that they're aren't businesses in Iowa. I work for the Department of Education, The University of Iowa is in my town, we have the largest teaching hospital in the entire Midwest, John Deere is headquartered near here, heard of McCleod USA, also know as Yellowbook you stupid jackass!

    [QUOTE]According to en.wp (hard to trust), which may be correct, General American is spoken by many people in various places in the US, most english-speaking Canadians, and yet, it also mentions that Canada and California have a similar vowel shift. This may explain why the women there sound normal, men sound a little funny, and people can't tell I'm from the US by my "accent". Then again, I get that everywhere I go, except the East, but I hate the east, so I am glad they don't think I'm from around there.[QUOTE]

    Good for you want a cookie cause you sound Canadian, I don't care.
    Question everything especially yourself.

    Opivy1980

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Opivy1980 View Post
    Good for you want a cookie cause you sound Canadian, I don't care.
    Closest to General American on average, apparently. That's why William Shatner, among others, did/do so well in the US.

    Funny thing to be so patriotic about, little dude.


    For the record: They usually catch me on the French stuff they have mixed in, not on the English. Their English is RP, which is accent-less to US people (and for that matter, anyone that speaks English), unlike Broadcast English, which is an accent. The upshot is that it indicates that there is a standard, and that not only is "General American" not it, but that it is actually seen as an accent by everyone, except those that speak it and believe otherwise.
    I 100%, N 88%, T 88%, J 75%

    Disclaimer: The above is my opinion and mine alone, it does not mean I cannot change my mind, nor does it guarantee that my comments are related to any deep-seated convictions. Take everything I say with a whole snowplow worth of salt and call me in the morning, if you can.

  6. #66
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I agree with the person who says you should only correct someone's grammar in narrowly defined situations. Obviously you understood what the person was trying to communicate if you can correct them. There are many other (and less embarrassing) ways to advance someone else's best interest. Why decide to have someone else's best-interests in mind while only correcting their grammar?
    Yeah I agree with that too. I never correct grammar unless actually in those situations. Even when I'm coaching foreigners, I often don't correct them if it'd really interfere with the flow of their expression. I'll let it slide at the time, then later when it's a more appropriate time I'll let them know. The most effective way though is to do it like you do with little kids who are learning to talk. Rather than say 'that's wrong, it should be...' and come over all critical, which can be discouraging, simply repeat what they say with the correct grammar. Like when a kid says "I told she today" you can keep positive, show you've understood them and give them the correct usage at the same time, by saying "Oh? You told her today, did you? What did she say?"

    With native English (or French) speakers, I don't bother, because a lot of the time it's dialect and/or deliberate, and though the person uses it in speech, they often know not to do it in formal writing, so it'd just be patronising. In speech and informal writing I liberally sprinkle my expression with slang and dialect terms, because I like lively and colourful language. It irritates me immensely when someone 'corrects' my personal idiolect, when I'm probably more capable than they are, of writing in a correct, formal style.
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  7. #67
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow
    At that point, someone needs to send me a new bottle of Laphroaig Peptobismal.
    Fixed!
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    I am an English teacher. I will correct grammar within the context of an academic background and advise my students to use the standard dialect in formal public settings (such as public speaking with a mixed audience and job interviews). I will not tell my students that the dialect they use at home and with their families is incorrect or improper.

    I personally try to regard the standard dialect as a "common ground" dialect. There are myths spun about it as the "proper" way to speak, which is absurd--there is nothing inherently correct about the standard dialect; quite frankly, it's the dialect of privilege and to say that the African American vernacular and Southern dialects make someone sound stupid is racist/classist. That said, I see that the standard dialect is valuable as being the language that everybody speaks (in order to maximize understanding one another).

    It's pretty tough, really, because I'm trying to propagate a new way of thinking about dialect, but I fear I am really just holding up the old prejudicial values. Still, my students need a command of the standard dialect to be successful, and to deny that would be to ultimately do them a great disservice.
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  9. #69
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post

    For the record: They usually catch me on the French stuff they have mixed in, not on the English. Their English is RP, which is accent-less to US people (and for that matter, anyone that speaks English), unlike Broadcast English, which is an accent. The upshot is that it indicates that there is a standard, and that not only is "General American" not it, but that it is actually seen as an accent by everyone, except those that speak it and believe otherwise.
    You are talking about Canadians, right? Well, they don't use RP. They are definitely accented to someone who does use it (ie me).

    By way of explanation, I use Queen's English and come from the right part of England with the correct accent to be a RP user. I have over 10 years of marriage to a Canadian, and have spent a great deal of time all over Canada. Trust me, Canadians are accented to a RP user.

    -geoff

  10. #70
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Just a little nudge in this thread to keep the discourse at a civil level. It's fine to debate vehemently-- it's not okay to namecall and flame.

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