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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well thats the stereotypical "conservative" attitude of being nostalgic for the 1950's. If anything, the real conservative attitude is more or less for rediscovering the virtues and values of the Old Republic, prior to the Civil War.
    That actually sounds worse. What were the virtues of the Old Republic that we do not still have? Why do we need to "rediscover" anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Concerning the WASP question, we do have to acknowledge the fact the American heritage is built upon Anglo-Saxon culture and values, rather than abstract principles as we commonly see it today. Does that mean America is exclusively for WASPs? No, but we have to acknowledge that core in order to appreciate the American heritage.
    I suppose this is the central difference.

    Catholics and Deists (Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Ben Franklin being central Deist figures) were as present in the founding of the nation, and all the major advances and things that made this country great came during periods of plurality and escape from rigid puritanical values, while the times of retraction came from an attempt to "return" to something less ideal.

    I consider it an accident of history which religion was a majority (esp. since, back then, religion was moved out of favor) in the creation of the first modern democracy. If anything, it seems like the greatness of the U.S. come from the strong need to counter puritanical extremes. I guess, in that sense, we need it.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  2. #22
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    That actually sounds worse. What were the virtues of the Old Republic that we do not still have? Why do we need to "rediscover" anything?
    Well I guess the notion of a weak Federal government, and power being more concentrated at the state and local levels. Thats certainly one political virtue we need to rediscover if democracy is to survive in this country.

    Catholics and Deists (Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Ben Franklin being central Deist figures) were as present in the founding of the nation, and all the major advances and things that made this country great came during periods of plurality and escape from rigid puritanical values, while the times of retraction came from an attempt to "return" to something less ideal.
    It depends on what you mean by "plurality". The Old Republic was characterised by much plurality. Each region had its own unique customs and culture; so much so that Americans from other regions didnt even recognize each other as fellow countrymen. There was considerable religious diversity, with well over 10,000 religious denominations in wake of the Great Awakening.

    Plurality and puritanical values are not mutually exclusive anyways; but in this context such a system only existed in New England.

    That's actually one reason why the Anti-Federalists were so opposed to a strong federal government, because they felt that it'd be impossible for such a government to operate effectively with a population so diverse.

    You saw a strong decrease in plurality after the Civil War, when the attempt was made to make America truely "one nation". It wasn't untill the 1960's that plurality once again became an American virtue supposedly, but our understanding of plurality via multiculturalism is deeply flawed.

    Not all forms of pluralism are created equal, so forms work better than others. A conservative understanding of plurality would in line with the kind found in the Old Republic, and probably best expressed through the concept of localism. By contrast, "Liberal" understandings of plurality is expressed through multiculturalism.

    I also contend with the notion that religion and plurality are opposites either. Many contemporary Christian social theorists have articulated how Christianity provides a much more firm foundation for pluralism than secularism does.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Well I guess the notion of a weak Federal government, and power being more concentrated at the state and local levels. Thats certainly one political virtue we need to rediscover if democracy is to survive in this country.



    It depends on what you mean by "plurality". The Old Republic was characterised by much plurality. Each region had its own unique customs and culture; so much so that Americans from other regions didnt even recognize each other as fellow countrymen. There was considerable religious diversity, with well over 10,000 religious denominations in wake of the Great Awakening.

    Plurality and puritanical values are not mutually exclusive anyways; but in this context such a system only existed in New England.

    That's actually one reason why the Anti-Federalists were so opposed to a strong federal government, because they felt that it'd be impossible for such a government to operate effectively with a population so diverse.

    You saw a strong decrease in plurality after the Civil War, when the attempt was made to make America truely "one nation". It wasn't untill the 1960's that plurality once again became an American virtue supposedly, but our understanding of plurality via multiculturalism is deeply flawed.

    Not all forms of pluralism are created equal, so forms work better than others. A conservative understanding of plurality would in line with the kind found in the Old Republic, and probably best expressed through the concept of localism. By contrast, "Liberal" understandings of plurality is expressed through multiculturalism.

    I also contend with the notion that religion and plurality are opposites either. Many contemporary Christian social theorists have articulated how Christianity provides a much more firm foundation for pluralism than secularism does.
    Interesting, can you point me to some reading material?

    I am asking because I have seen studies (and even done computer simulations) that show that diversity in strategy is actually more beneficial to problem-solving (especially, dynamic "system"-like problems) than picking a "best" way and duplicating it. Granted, this is in a technical field, but I have seem enough popular literature to believe this to be the case in general.

    I always thought that multiple cultures and backgrounds and an ability to allow that diversity also lead to more plurality in thought and strategy.

    I am Hindu myself, and it is part of the religion that other religions have something to teach. It seems like there are many Christians, Jews, and Muslims who also hold their faith strongly yet still accept that others hold a different point of view and even appreciate that this is so. This is my idea of secularism and multiculturalism.

    However, I do agree that there are brands of secularism (the type that bans burqas and crosses) that are more intolerant than many of the religions they criticize.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #24
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Fiscal or social?
    wails from the crypt.

  5. #25
    Sniffles
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    ygolo, I'll have to address your arguments some other time.

  6. #26
    Member sophiedoph's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Why are you conservative?

    I ask because conservative values don't make any sense to me.
    LOL. I knew this had to be written by an INTJ.
    Hugs,

    Jen
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  7. #27
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    This reminds me of when the Daily Show was at the RNC and they asked random people what they thought "small-town values" were, and almost all couldn't come up with anything, one person said "fishing".

  8. #28
    Queen hunter Virtual ghost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Okay, then. Well, kinda like Jack Flack, when it comes to politics, I examine issues independently. Sometimes my view of it lines up with what's called "conservative", sometimes it doesn't. I would say I tend to agree with the conservative side of issues more often than the liberal one, but I don't do so because it's the conservative side, it just happens that it is. Many times my view or solution on a particular issue doesn't neatly line up with either side, I think a ton of issues have much more than two sides to them. But in its very basic form, the "conservative" issues I tend to agree with are against abortion, against changing the laws of marriage, in favor of strict punishments for crimes, less regulation of businesses, less centralized power in the federal government, more freedom for local communities.

    Socially, I could be described as very conservative. I don't drink alcohol or use any kind of non-medical drugs, I don't go to dance clubs or bars or very many concerts. In general, I don't tend to be outgoing or desiring to be at loud parties or other places with large groups of people, besides sporting events, but if I go there I'm doing it for the love of the game and the experience myself, not to be social.

    Religiously, I am both very conservative and very liberal at the same time. My basic beliefs are conservative, in the sense of believing in the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and trying to do my best to adhere to the teachings of Jesus. But I don't like most traditional religious services or ceremonies, rituals gone through for the sake of tradition hold no value for me. I prefer more "contemporary" services that are much more relaxed with contemporary music and no focus on what people are wearing or elaborate robes or fancy buildings.

    Meanwhile, in economic habits, I am about as far away from conservative as you can get. I am very good at spending money fast and running out of money! I spend plenty on myself, sure, but I also spend it on other people, both in a charitable way (sponsoring a child overseas, giving 20 bucks to the guy at the gas station who says he has no money to get home) and just to have a good time with people, going to dinner or movies or bowling or other activities, sports my son plays, toys and other things for him too. My philosophy is that life is to be enjoyed, so saving up money is hard for me to do because it's hard to think about long-term benefits when I don't even know that the world won't end tomorrow.

    So, as you can see, I can be described as very liberal or very conservative or somewhere in between, depending on the area we're discussing.
    I value your reply but I must insist on the original question. Since totally conservative people are rare I will reform the question.
    Why do you live your life with conservatism in some areas of your life?

  9. #29
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    I value your reply but I must insist on the original question. Since totally conservative people are rare I will reform the question.
    Why do you live your life with conservatism in some areas of your life?
    I dunno. It's just how I am. It's what comes natural in those areas where it does. Sorry I'm not more help. but I don't have any scientific explanation or anything.
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  10. #30
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Social or fiscal?!
    wails from the crypt.

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