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  1. #61
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    You're much smarter than I am. Your read almost identically silhouettes many of the obstacles I faced in my earlier life.

    Humility is important to me, likely because the concept is often alien to me - especially in a situation where I felt baited. Patience is integral to this formula and is indubitable to the overall expression of humility. I have a long way to go, as it applies to centered emotional intellect.

    For what it's worth, murkrow, my comments were shitty. My Te can sometimes rottweiler without proper catalyst.

    Thanks again, Usehername. Your intuition is exceptional.
    A simple, and somewhat obvious point though it is, the point of communication is to be understood.

    If one learns it isn't working, either change the way one portrays the message, or find a new audience. I'm not sure which is easier..

  2. #62
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post

    If one learns it isn't working, either change the way one portrays the message, or find a new audience. I'm not sure which is easier..
    I'm in agreement here.

    Migration is something I've debating for some time now. I think I'll (temporarily?) shift my focus towards a different audience.

    The blunderbuss in this thread simply sharpens the clarity of my judgment. At this point, deliberation has reached critical mass.

    The deficiency remains in my court. A learned individual is always responsible for aptly integrating his acumen into those he wishes to teach.

  3. #63
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    As I said earlier, I felt baited.
    I responded in turn.
    So you realized you were being baited but fell for it anyway?
    I don't wanna!

  4. #64
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Okay, one thing I just noticed --

    Night is an ENTP now? Did he just switch places with Nocapzy or something?
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #65
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    So you realized you were being baited but fell for it anyway?
    Yes.

    I addressed this in my earlier post, booyalab.

  6. #66
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    This is very well said, Athenian.

    You're correct about some of the complexity - sometimes I naturally assume collective interest in esoterica: a precept that often leaves folks blank, from the get-go.

    This is an unhealthy intellectual practice.

    I'm not sure how to vacate it.
    Maybe you don't have to. Perhaps there are things that could only be said through understanding such things. I think you might just have to start simpler. Perhaps you could introduce us to some of this kind of stuff that you're interested in, show us how you got into it, and how we can come to see things on this level. You'd probably have to say things you thought were obvious, but... I think that might be the only way some of us can get it.

    Of course, there's a chance that you already did and I missed out reading it (I hope not, though). I don't read the forums very thoroughly, I fear.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Snail's Avatar
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    Default Thanks for responding.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWing View Post
    The miscommunication we seem to be confronting here is that I am chiefly concerned with impersonal analysis. You seem to be concerned with the matters of the heart, or mostly having what you perceive to a congenial attitude towards all things.
    It's not really about congeniality. Your tone is not the issue, although if you were being more emotionally expressive about your bias in a manner that were more personal or cruel, I would probably think less of your maturity level, because it would indicate either an underdeveloped system for balancing emotions with values, or an inappropriate ethical foundation against which to balance them.

    What you have said hasn't always been accurate, and an inability to empathize with an unfamiliar perspective has caused you to have some false beliefs about what it even means to be F-dominant, perhaps based more on questionable theories than on observable actualities. Many of the things you write about our characteristic tendencies are not really about F qualities, but have more to do with the interactions of other processes that would cause the same results regardless of the F/T distinction, so when I read what you say Fs are supposed to act like, I can't identify with the kinds of behaviors you describe, even though I am extreme in my F preference.

    Many of the things you say don't apply with enough regularity to be accurate generalizations. We're not as scary, random or unpredictable as you may think, and most of us aren't blind followers who would say or do anything to avoid momentary disharmony. We don't like disharmony, but sometimes it's necessary to make a temporary mess in the process of organizing something more completely. Sometimes temporary conflict can lead to more lasting forms of resolution, as I hope this will.

    Hence, when you read my posts, you focus almost exclusively on the attitude, or the emotional ambience they were written in, whilst ignoring or misunderstanding the impersonal analysis. Since Fs often display their personal attitudes rather than a perspective of the matter they comment on, what you say of my posts tells me something about you in a very mysterious fashion, rather than my posts. The fact that you earnestly believe that my polemics against Fs had something to do with people like you shows that you have misunderstood what you have read.
    This is not true. I focus more on what you say than how you say it, even if both are forms of information that I process. For instance, you are being dispassionately condescending right now, but I still recognize the factual reality that you believe my perspective is irrational, even if there is no clear emotionality evident in your expression of the reasons for your assumptions. If you were speaking, I would be listening to your words as symbols representing both meanings and attitudes rather than noticing only one or the other. If you spoke in a monotone, as you probably do for the sake of consistency with your linguistic style, the sound qualities representing the attitudes would be diminished and I would be interpreting only the meanings from the symbols while using sentence structure, word choice and context to determine the most probable unexpressed attitudes, which would usually be available information delivered in the tonal inflections. To you, the attitudes may be irrelevant, but they provide another dimension to the expression. It is not always a positive dimension and can actually hinder some communication by providing unnecessary distraction, especially if the attitude being communicated is negative or hostile. Sometimes it is important to the expression of a wholistic meaning, however, and it has useful purposes according to the situation. The difference between speech where only the direct word meanings are used and speech where an emotional expression rides along on the meanings would be analogous to the difference between watching television in black and white vs. watching it in color, where communication without tonal symbols is like watching something in black and white. Part of the information is being left out, even if clarity is still usually possible or is sometimes even improved according to the specific situation.

    But again thank you very much.

    Usually we find the tendencies of opposite types irritating, yet in this case it isnt so. I do encourage you to keep doing what you're doing, you're providing plenty great food for thought!
    You're welcome. Yes, I admit that I have frequently had difficulties with certain types because of compatibility issues, but I am working on having the self-control to try to understand them better so I can re-balance my emotions with my F values in order to provide internal consistency that allows for appropriate behavior. Thank you for your response.

  8. #68
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    I can't imagine a better compliment.
    Let's hope I forever remain a mystery to you.
    Yes, everyone likes a good mystery.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  9. #69
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Yes, everyone likes a good mystery.
    Perhaps.

    If the punchline remains mysterious - even after its delivery - intent becomes irrelevant.

    Groupthink reigns.

  10. #70
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snail View Post
    It's not really about congeniality. Your tone is not the issue, although if you were being more emotionally expressive about your bias in a manner that were more personal or cruel, I would probably think less of your maturity level, because it would indicate either an underdeveloped system for balancing emotions with values, or an inappropriate ethical foundation against which to balance them.

    What you have said hasn't always been accurate, and an inability to empathize with an unfamiliar perspective has caused you to have some false beliefs about what it even means to be F-dominant, perhaps based more on questionable theories than on observable actualities. Many of the things you write about our characteristic tendencies are not really about F qualities, but have more to do with the interactions of other processes that would cause the same results regardless of the F/T distinction, so when I read what you say Fs are supposed to act like, I can't identify with the kinds of behaviors you describe, even though I am extreme in my F preference.

    Many of the things you say don't apply with enough regularity to be accurate generalizations. We're not as scary, random or unpredictable as you may think, and most of us aren't blind followers who would say or do anything to avoid momentary disharmony. We don't like disharmony, but sometimes it's necessary to make a temporary mess in the process of organizing something more completely. Sometimes temporary conflict can lead to more lasting forms of resolution, as I hope this will.



    This is not true. I focus more on what you say than how you say it, even if both are forms of information that I process. For instance, you are being dispassionately condescending right now, but I still recognize the factual reality that you believe my perspective is irrational, even if there is no clear emotionality evident in your expression of the reasons for your assumptions. If you were speaking, I would be listening to your words as symbols representing both meanings and attitudes rather than noticing only one or the other. If you spoke in a monotone, as you probably do for the sake of consistency with your linguistic style, the sound qualities representing the attitudes would be diminished and I would be interpreting only the meanings from the symbols while using sentence structure, word choice and context to determine the most probable unexpressed attitudes, which would usually be available information delivered in the tonal inflections. To you, the attitudes may be irrelevant, but they provide another dimension to the expression. It is not always a positive dimension and can actually hinder some communication by providing unnecessary distraction, especially if the attitude being communicated is negative or hostile. Sometimes it is important to the expression of a wholistic meaning, however, and it has useful purposes according to the situation. The difference between speech where only the direct word meanings are used and speech where an emotional expression rides along on the meanings would be analogous to the difference between watching television in black and white vs. watching it in color, where communication without tonal symbols is like watching something in black and white. Part of the information is being left out, even if clarity is still usually possible or is sometimes even improved according to the specific situation.



    You're welcome. Yes, I admit that I have frequently had difficulties with certain types because of compatibility issues, but I am working on having the self-control to try to understand them better so I can re-balance my emotions with my F values in order to provide internal consistency that allows for appropriate behavior. Thank you for your response.
    1)It is true that we can infer truths about the world from the way they feel, but this is rather unreliable. We do not exactly know what our feelings tell us about the situation. Yet we do know exactly what logic tells us about a situation, its spilled out step by step like a cold mathematical equation. The more systematic an approach to solving a problem is, the more reliable it is, as we have a way of controlling the situation. In this case we know exactly what is going on, if we are going by pure emotion, things will be much less clear.

    2)Feeling in itself is very hectic. As it is tantamount to pure passion. It is a truism that emotion does not appear to flow in a systematic fashion, it seems to have a will of its own. Feelers may not be so random because they have developed Thinking to a considerable degree. Most Feelers that you will meet will have developed Thinking as the Western society forces them to do so through education. With regard to human behavior, random behavior could be a result of lack of Thinking because of the preponderance of Feeling. However, this is not what my posts were concerned with. They were concerned with the pure essence of Feeling, not with how it manifests through social interaction.

    3)I need you to point out what you consider to be my biases. I do not recognize any.

    Definition

    Bias/Prejudice: An unwarranted notion, one that has derived not through sound reasoning, but from the personal will of the thinker.

    Because I have given reasons to support my views, they cannot be called prejudice. In order for it to be shown that they are a prejudice, you must show how they are unsupported.

    Not picking on you, just believe this would be a very interesting experiment in thought for you to embark on.

    In addition to all this, I should tell you, Thinkers are primarily driven by impersonal motives. Take it as nothing personal on their part, as that is what it truly is. I wasnt condescending to you.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

    “No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.”---Samuel Johnson

    My blog: www.randommeanderings123.blogspot.com/

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