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Thread: Fighting Racism

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    C'mon, the wealth of America was built on 300 years of institutional slavery. And most of the descendants of those slaves have been excluded from the wealth of America.

    So the purpose of racism is to hide this historical fact.
    Non sequitur. "Racism" if you look at the dictionary (and how it is generally understood) refers to acknowledging that there are innate differences between groups of people, and an admission of the consequence, which is that they cannot be equal to each other. Many people live in a fantasy world where everybody is born equal, and if they're not, they should be made to be.

    As movies constantly remind us, the wealth of Rome was at least partly built on slavery, but you don't see the French, English and Germans asking the Italians for reparations. What is so special about the Atlantic slave trade? A slave trade has existed in Africa itself for thousands of years. I am not condoning slavery, but it is dishonest and highly revealing that you ignore the big picture around it.

    Racism is a fake crime. "Anti-racists" tend to be self-interested or ideologically brainwashed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    And naturally we hate those we have wronged, and call it racism.
    I don't hate anybody. Acknowledging race does not make you hateful - this is one of the most pervasive lies the academic left has manufactured. What I refuse to do is believe something because a lot of other people my age do, or because it is "good for society". I will be the judge of that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    C'mon, the wealth of America was built on 300 years of institutional slavery. And most of the descendants of those slaves have been excluded from the wealth of America.

    So the purpose of racism is to hide this historical fact.

    And naturally we hate those we have wronged, and call it racism.
    I believe that is an over simplification.

    Class struggle and race struggles should not be conflated despite the obvious overlaps that there often are.

    Race more often that class sees the same people at one time the oppressed and another the oppressor, consider the Irish and how they became white by hating and persecuting the black man, consider the "invisible" history of the chinese in building American railways (or the history of Chop Suey if you want to look into that, the "odds and ends" created for an angry cowboy who believed the mythology that chinamen will eat "anything") or the ethnic cleansing of Italian communities and nativism violence only touched upon in movies like Gangs of New York.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Non sequitur. "Racism" if you look at the dictionary (and how it is generally understood) refers to acknowledging that there are innate differences between groups of people, and an admission of the consequence, which is that they cannot be equal to each other. Many people live in a fantasy world where everybody is born equal, and if they're not, they should be made to be.

    As movies constantly remind us, the wealth of Rome was at least partly built on slavery, but you don't see the French, English and Germans asking the Italians for reparations. What is so special about the Atlantic slave trade? A slave trade has existed in Africa itself for thousands of years. I am not condoning slavery, but it is dishonest and highly revealing that you ignore the big picture around it.

    Racism is a fake crime. "Anti-racists" tend to be self-interested or ideologically brainwashed.



    I don't hate anybody - I just don't buy into the nonsense that I should believe something because a lot of other people my age do, or because it is "good for society".
    Who says its "good for society" and who else your age believes it?

    You make points which are worth discussing but you embed it in such emotionally charged outrage that you spoil it.

    Not all anti-racists are ideological, brain washed and self-interested, a few will engage with those observations and even if they are they are not likely to be endeared to any discussion of the pit falls of opposition by being villified in that way.

    I actually have no problems with reparations movements internationally or in any context but I believe that reparations themselves would prove totally nebulous in correcting the wrongs or legacies of past oppressions.

    Say there was a payment, adjusted for all public, shared amenities, benefits, welfare and public support over historical time which all ancestors up to the present availed of in one way or another, the final sum is not going to be admittance to the millionaires club or free lunch/free ride for life many believe.

    It could be something which is used to expose the inability of many groups borne of grievances to manage expectations among the people they claim to advocate for. In fact this idea of a "final write down" and reparation is catching on among a lot of conservatives and even some racists who are sure giving money to those populations will be a case of "easy come, easy go" and squandered within a single or two generations.

    The way in which some lottery winners from very humble starting points have lived and lost their small fortunes is illustrative enough of the point if there needs to be any kind of illustration. Everyone knows the stories about bin men turned millionaires who wind up with nothing but the badly dented sports car they cant afford to get repaired.

    Even the deal which are clever and involve demands of land and seperatism I would expect to wind up being sold back to the "massas" once the original ideologues grow old and disappear.

  4. #84
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Non sequitur. "Racism" if you look at the dictionary (and how it is generally understood) refers to acknowledging that there are innate differences between groups of people, and an admission of the consequence, which is that they cannot be equal to each other. Many people live in a fantasy world where everybody is born equal, and if they're not, they should be made to be.
    No. Racism is the belief that it is OK to have double (or multiple) standards for people based upon their membership in certain groups, and the generalizations associated with those groups. Put another way, that it is OK to make judgments about individuals based on their membership in identifiable groups whether or not that is relevant to the question at hand.

    Many people think of a world in which every person has the right to be judged on his or her own merits, whether they follow the average or stereotype for the various groups they belong to, or not. Sadly this does remain a fantasy in most places.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Non sequitur. "Racism" if you look at the dictionary (and how it is generally understood) refers to acknowledging that there are innate differences between groups of people, and an admission of the consequence, which is that they cannot be equal to each other. Many people live in a fantasy world where everybody is born equal, and if they're not, they should be made to be.

    As movies constantly remind us, the wealth of Rome was at least partly built on slavery, but you don't see the French, English and Germans asking the Italians for reparations. What is so special about the Atlantic slave trade? A slave trade has existed in Africa itself for thousands of years. I am not condoning slavery, but it is dishonest and highly revealing that you ignore the big picture around it.

    Racism is a fake crime. "Anti-racists" tend to be self-interested or ideologically brainwashed.



    I don't hate anybody. Acknowledging race does not make you hateful - this is one of the most pervasive lies the academic left has manufactured. What I refuse to do is believe something because a lot of other people my age do, or because it is "good for society". I will be the judge of that...
    I think what mole is trying to say is that denying hiding things such as these is bad because it could lead to a lot of issues in the future. However, you don't seem to deny this, you seem to be trying to inmply slavey as having being normal therefore it's okay. This however is equally bad.

    Rome must not be one of them but there are many other nations that are held accountable for slavery and crimes against humanity.

    Ask @Mole. I am sure he knows how badly aboriginies were treated initially by the brits. Lolz. Austrlia however is doing quite a lot to take care of it's aboriginy population i've heard. So bravo austrlia.

    Hmm.. going back the usa, there are plenty of non white ethnicities living in the usa. They love it there (i have plenty of relatives there) and have no complaints about usa at all. They have mentioned being stared at in texas but that's it. So i guess it's bad living conditions of 'certain afrcan american' communities having a cyclic effect on them than the racism of whites that is affecting them.

    That's my defence for usa.

    Also i am sure african america communities would rather live in usa than african. I hope that didn't sound too racist.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Who says its "good for society" and who else your age believes it?
    I am making subtle allusions to other people who have posted here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Not all anti-racists are ideological, brain washed and self-interested, a few will engage with those observations and even if they are they are not likely to be endeared to any discussion of the pit falls of opposition by being villified in that way.

    I actually have no problems with reparations movements internationally or in any context but I believe that reparations themselves would prove totally nebulous in correcting the wrongs or legacies of past oppressions.

    Say there was a payment, adjusted for all public, shared amenities, benefits, welfare and public support over historical time which all ancestors up to the present availed of in one way or another, the final sum is not going to be admittance to the millionaires club or free lunch/free ride for life many believe.

    It could be something which is used to expose the inability of many groups borne of grievances to manage expectations among the people they claim to advocate for. In fact this idea of a "final write down" and reparation is catching on among a lot of conservatives and even some racists who are sure giving money to those populations will be a case of "easy come, easy go" and squandered within a single or two generations.

    The way in which some lottery winners from very humble starting points have lived and lost their small fortunes is illustrative enough of the point if there needs to be any kind of illustration. Everyone knows the stories about bin men turned millionaires who wind up with nothing but the badly dented sports car they cant afford to get repaired.

    Even the deal which are clever and involve demands of land and seperatism I would expect to wind up being sold back to the "massas" once the original ideologues grow old and disappear.
    Pretty much every ethnic group has been enslaved at some point in history, so to be fair almost everybody would have to be paid, and you'd have to decide how much (a value judgement which could get troublesome). What you are suggesting would lead to an endless cycle of reparations, which would achieve nothing. To make matters worse, an enormous amount of public money would be wasted as a result.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No. Racism is the belief that it is OK to have double (or multiple) standards for people based upon their membership in certain groups, and the generalizations associated with those groups. Put another way, that it is OK to make judgments about individuals based on their membership in identifiable groups whether or not that is relevant to the question at hand.

    Many people think of a world in which every person has the right to be judged on his or her own merits, whether they follow the average or stereotype for the various groups they belong to, or not. Sadly this does remain a fantasy in most places.
    racism



    I rest my case!

    To answer you, sometimes it is relevant and appropriate to talk about people collectively in this way. We sometimes cover an political issue that divides people along racial lines on the forum, or discuss physiological differences between the races. Pretending this factor doesn't exist is a little immature. Also, stereotypes are not always inaccurate (e.g. profiling and crime rates).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    T answer you, sometimes it is relevant and appropriate to talk about people collectively in this way. We sometimes cover an political issue that divides people along racial lines on the forum, or discuss physiological differences between the races. Pretending this factor doesn't exist is a little immature. Also, stereotypes are not always inaccurate (e.g. profiling and crime rates).
    I can find definitions on the internet that coincide with the one I presented above. Accusations of racism (or sexism or any other -ism) inevitably boil down to the treatment of specific people in specific cases: who was hired, who was admitted to grad school, who was accepted as a tenant, who was lynched by people of a different group. Discussion about people collectively, involving verifiable observations collected with sufficient sample size and control of external factors, is appropriate and sometimes useful. We compare how men and women experience conditions like heart failure differently, so we can diagnose and treat patients better. We identify diseases like sickle cell anemia or Tay-Sachs that affect specific racial or ethnic groups disproportionately. We even note more superficial physical differences to help market beauty and fashion products. What is unproductive is any of the following:

    1) assuming every individual within a group will match the average for his/her group, and allowing our treatment of said individual to be guided by this mistaken assumption rather than the reality of who he or she is.

    2) extending generalizations beyond (or even in opposition to) what is scientifically supportable by reliable evidence; this includes "stacking the evidence deck" to try to support some personal bias.

    3) failing to account for causes of apparent generalities other than race or ethnicity; for instance, do blacks do more poorly on certain academic assessments than whites (assuming they do) because blacks are inherently less able/intelligent, or because on average they are given less education, more likely to grow up in poverty, etc.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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