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Thread: Veggie people?

  1. #11
    Glowy Goopy Goodness The_Liquid_Laser's Avatar
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    I tell people I'm vegetarian, but I eat fish and kosher meats. I mostly say I'm vegetarian since I only eat meat a couple of times a month.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I tell people I'm vegetarian, but I eat fish and kosher meats. I mostly say I'm vegetarian since I only eat meat a couple of times a month.
    I eat fish or some type of seafood once a month. Other than that, I'm Vegan. Not for value reasons either. I'm a 90% raw foodist, which just so happens to be a vegan diet.

    Dairy =

  3. #13
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squibbles View Post
    My personal thoughts about this are that if you have to eat meat (nomadic tribe, 3rd world country, poverty etc), then fine. But, if you are able to abstain, do it. Other products that don't require the death of the animal are fine, so long as the way in which they are raised is ethical.
    Being from a 3rd world country and poor is, depending on the circumstances, very conducive to being vegetarian. Most of the world's vegetarians are from India (about 300 million or so, depending on the count). Generally, buying meat is far more expensive than simply having a rounded vegetarian diet, since vegetables and lentils are consumed by meat-eaters anyway. At least in India. Just wanted to mention that vegetarianism is not a privilege of the wealthy.




    Quote Originally Posted by The_Liquid_Laser View Post
    I tell people I'm vegetarian, but I eat fish and kosher meats. I mostly say I'm vegetarian since I only eat meat a couple of times a month.
    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I eat fish or some type of seafood once a month. Other than that, I'm Vegan all the way.

    Dairy =
    "Vegetarianism is the practice of a diet that excludes all meat, including poultry, game, fish, shellfish or crustacea, and slaughter by-products."

    I think it's fair to say that someone who only occasionally (say 10 of the 90 meals in a month) eats meat is still not a vegetarian, but rather a carnivore with a largely vegetarian diet. Or in Liquid Laser's case, he's a flexitarian while 01011010's a pescetarian.

    I see true vegetarian status as requiring total abstinence: "I'm a vegetarian" = "I don't eat meat."

    Based on the generally-accepted definition of vegetarianism, I don't feel the need to qualify my vegetarianism with lacto-vegetarian, since milking doesn't involve any form of slaughter or the consumption of flesh (i.e. a baby that breast-feeds isn't having non-vegetarian food). Consideration of how the milk is obtained, for instance the "enslavement" of cows or goats, or their mistreatment, is an issue of animal rights and, in my opinion, has nothing to do with vegetarianism as a strict concept of refraining from eating meat products and subsisting entirely on vegetables, legumes, and fruits.

    Eggs are a tricky one, though... I'd call myself ovo-vegetarian... my brother laughingly calls the eating of eggs "the consumption of uterine discharge", so strictly-speaking, unless there's at least a partially-formed chick inside the egg, it's not quite meat-eating... but nonetheless, I accept the idea that ovophagia doesn't quite meet purist vegetarian muster.
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  4. #14
    Senior Member substitute's Avatar
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    Samuel, people who only eat kosher/halal meat are, to all intents and purposes when eating out at least in this country, vegetarian. In my town it's virtually impossible to get hold of halal meat unless at great expense and trouble, so when I was a Muslim it was much simpler to say to non-Muslim friends and relatives who had to cook for me, that I was a vegetarian because before I started doing that, it became incredibly tedious to have to explain all the halal rules and then also my reasons for adopting them (why would a white guy be a Muslim? ), or worse, risk the guilt trips that ensued from these people actually taking the trouble to acquire halal meat for me and know that because of me, their catering bill was doubled.

    So, Laser, I understand why you'd say that and don't think you're a lying hypocrite

    And when I was forced by poverty to break my 10 year vegetarian stint, I can quite honestly say it was not cheaper to eat vegetables. I was fucking homeless. I was living in a self-built bivouac in a forest. I had no money at all. Friends came by and brought me packs of burgers and sausages to cook on the campfire. I was not in a position to turn it down.

    I dunno, but I think how one (meaning one individual, not 'the dictionary') would define vegetarianism might depend on one's personal reasons for it. From my point of view it was always a simple question of discipline and emulation of the Rule of St Benedict, which doesn't require a person to give up meat entirely but simply to avoid it as a matter of discipline. In the medieval sense in which I approached it, it meant to me 'not eating flesh of killed animals'. Eggs didn't enter into it - not flesh, not requiring any death. Incidentally, the traditional 'meat abstinence' practiced by Catholics during say, Lent or other periods of 'fasting' allows the eating of fish and always has. None of this would meet with the approval of a veggie purist whose reasons are all to do with actually having something against eating meat as a concept in itself.

    For me, not eating it is not a result of belief that it's wrong/bad/whatever to eat it. I've no problem with it and actually I personally disagree with that kind of vegetarianism for reasons of my own, not least because I disagree generally, philosophically, with any categorical statement that amounts to 'naming the well from which one won't drink' as it were. Same reason I don't say I've given up smoking, though I haven't touched it in six years. But I'm generally a lot more tolerant and respectful of people's decisions to eat meat every day if they want, than vegetarians generally are. As I say, because I don't avoid meat out of any idea of it being wrong to eat it. Most vegetarians I've met would like it if the world turned veggie. I would not, even during the 10 year period during which I ate no meat at all, and was always perfectly happy to buy and cook meat for other people.

    I just find it interesting that the word and concept seems to be defined by the 'rules' of just one 'set' of people and their personal reasons. I don't see why the 'anti killing animals for food' brigade's reasons and definitions are necessarily any more valid than or out-rank the Catholic who doesn't eat meat but does eat fish during Lent.
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I think it's fair to say that someone who only occasionally (say 10 of the 90 meals in a month) eats meat is still not a vegetarian, but rather a carnivore with a largely vegetarian diet. Or in Liquid Laser's case, he's a flexitarian while 01011010's a pescetarian.
    I don't consider myself a vegetarian or vegan, but my diet is primarily vegan aside from once a month consumption of seafood.

  6. #16
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    Samuel, people who only eat kosher/halal meat are, to all intents and purposes when eating out at least in this country, vegetarian.

    ....

    So, Laser, I understand why you'd say that and don't think you're a lying hypocrite
    I wasn't trying to get on Laser or, for that matter, 01011010's cases.

    Note that you have to qualify, saying that people who follow strict kosher/halaal diets are "to all intents and purposes" vegetarian.

    A vegetarian wouldn't have to worry about kosher and halaal rules (generally) because he/she wouldn't be eating meat, period. Someone who is forced to eat vegetarian food when not at home because he/she ascribes to certain religious/community practices is not a vegetarian, because he/she eats meat regularly when the meat passes certain standards. Muslims and Jews who do eat kosher/halaal meat are not vegetarians, because they haven't sworn off meat, only meats that don't meet (!) a certain standard.

    I guess what I'm saying is that a vegetarian is someone who just, simply, chooses never to eat meat (which includes fish). Everyone else is (dis)qualified by their deviations from that rule. That was the nature of my post.

    -------------------------------

    That's why I called Liquid Laser a flexitarian. I don't understand why this should be taken as insulting, because there's nothing hypocritical in Liquid Laser or 01011010's stances. They're not claiming that kosher meat or seafood are vegetarian foods. Liquid Laser does tell hosts at lunch or dinner parties that he's vegetarian and, thus, avoids having to deal with the burden of having an overzealous host purchase meat that's received a rabbi's approval, so there's a very good reason for him to simply avoid fuss and call himself a vegetarian under those circumstances. In fact, in acknowledging that they deviate from a vegetarian diet, they are merely strengthening my semantic (not moral) point.

    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    I don't consider myself a vegetarian or vegan, but my diet is primarily vegan aside from once a month consumption of seafood.
    And that's exactly what I understood from your first post. Case in point.
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    I razed a slum, Amen.

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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel De Mazarin View Post
    I guess what I'm saying is that a vegetarian is someone who just, simply, chooses never to eat meat (which includes fish). Everyone else is (dis)qualified by their deviations from that rule. That was the nature of my post.
    yeah I know. I was just saying that's one definition you subscribe to, and asking why that particular one outranks/invalidates others.

    I wouldn't say when I explain myself that I'm 'qualifying'. Just explaining what something means to me in the acknowledgement that someone else probably has a different definition in mind doesn't necessarily make my definition (and that of those others who might use it, and there are others) invalid.

    That's why I called Liquid Laser a flexitarian. I don't understand why this should be taken as insulting,
    what's insulting (though only mildly) is when a person self-defines and identifies and then another person tells them they're wrong, because they don't personally agree with their definitions of things. An analogy of how I'm taking your posts would be like if someone says they're gay but have been married in the past, then you saying "being gay is to consciously choose relationships and sexual intimacy exclusively with people of the same sex; you having done otherwise means you're not gay, just flexisexual".

    Like you know what a person is better than they do, and they have to define themselves by your definitions of words.

    I'm not having a go at you, just putting across another side, thassall. I always find it fascinating when, in semantic debates, it transpires that living languages now serve dictionaries, rather than the other way round, as was originally intended. If it were still the case that the living language as spoken by native speakers was still the ultimate authority as to what a word means, then there'd probably be a definition in the dictionary something like:

    vegetarian: noun 1 - a person who, on a permanent basis, strictly refrains from the consumption of products which entail the killing of an animal ; 2 - a person who, by personal choice, prefers not to eat such products, but who will in certain circumstances; 3 - a person who is abstaining from eating the flesh of mammals during a religious fasting period (but who may or may not still eat fish)

    etc
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  8. #18
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    Oh and also, I'm thinking that when a person says 'what they are', does it always have to be a statement of a permanent state of being, or if they're talking about a present state of being, applicable in (perhaps only in) the current moment, does that statement automatically become a lie if it's not permanently applicable?

    As in, the Jew/Muslim, say he goes to a restaurant with his friends that doesn't serve halal/kosher meat. In this moment, these people are vegetarian as it were, in spirit, because their only choice of food to eat is from the vegetarian menu. If his friend says to him "why don't you take the bolognese?" and he replies "no thanks, I'm vegetarian", in that moment he's not lying - or is he, IYO? Should he have to qualify and explain himself and allow the conversation to turn to his eating habits, whether he wants to or not, to avoid being considered a liar because he doesn't, as a permanent thing, categorically abstain from eating all meat? Though he's not making a statement of permanent state, the fact that his friends might believe he is doesn't necessarily make him a liar IMO, it just makes his friends false assumers, though understandably so. Perhaps only understandably so because the definition of vegetarian seems to be 'owned' by the strict anti-meat brigade, as it were?

    Just an interesting question, I thought...
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

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  9. #19
    Wonderer Samuel De Mazarin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by substitute View Post
    vegetarian: noun 2 - a person who, by personal choice, prefers not to eat such products, but who will in certain circumstances; 3 - a person who is abstaining from eating the flesh of mammals during a religious fasting period (but who may or may not still eat fish)
    A person who prefers not to eat meat but still does is NOT a vegetarian.

    And a person who is fasting is not a 'temporary' vegetarian. He is someone who is fasting and has provisionally adopted a vegetarian diet.

    And fish counts as meat by all reasonable standards, being flesh.

    A vegetarian is someone who doesn't eat meat.
    Madman's azure lie: a zen miasma ruled.

    Realize us, Madman!

    I razed a slum, Amen.

    ...............................................

  10. #20
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    OK, how very black and white of you

    Still, if I'd made that post I'd have felt obliged to put 'IMO' somewhere there... heh.

    edit - though, does the (probable) fact that if you were in a life or death situation, you'd probably eat meat too, make you not a vegetarian? As opposed to say, a horse, that would just starve to death if there were no vegetable matter for it to eat? Cos presumably your argument for your own vegetarianism is based on your current state and assuming that this state will continue indefinitely... you can't know that in your future you're not going to eat meat ever again, so that makes me question the validity of your definition. Does your dictionary entry then, say "a person who will not eat meat under any circumstances provided they have a choice?" or does it say "even if there's no choice but starvation and death, this person will not eat anything resulting from the death of an animal"? Cos if it were so, then a) would you still be as confident in your belonging to that group, and b) what sort of term of future state are we talking about then, is taken into account or not taken into account, in your definition?

    Do we say "people who haven't eaten any meat today as a conscious choice and plan not to eat any in the future, though can't be certain as to whether or not they ever might, either through survival circumstances or just that they might at some point not believe in vegetarianism any more and give it up"? Meanwhile the person at the private dinner party who's not eaten any meat today, might but might not tomorrow (just like you, depending what the future holds), is simply wrong or inaccurate if they say they're a veggie?

    Cos you can't define it by the past, since a person who has only taken the decision to be a veggie today is still a veggie until the moment they eat meat, IYO, and it can't be defined by the present because if you're happy to say you might eat meat tomorrow then IYO, you're not a veggie. So you're defining it by the future. Which is unknown. I just think that's a bit weird.

    I'm just very wary of people defining themselves according to futures they can't possibly predict. I'm sure you can see how that gnaws at my P. You're looking like someone stepped on your Si though
    Ils se d�merdent, les mecs: trop bon, trop con..................................MY BLOG!

    "When it all comes down to dust
    I will kill you if I must
    I will help you if I can" - Leonard Cohen

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