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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    I also offer this an amazing example. Aphex Twin is a god of electronic music, and he is able to compose pretty much anything. The swing is not only used as visual, but a very subtle and important sonic tool.

    Yes electronic music is probably the most complex music we have in our generation, I love a lot of electronic, but not necessarily a lot of "house" music, which drives me batshit.

    Aphex Twin is an excellent example of an NTP musician which will probably therefore satisfy him. But maybe not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Music without a framework is like typing random letters on the keyboard.

    It doesn't make sense, and it isn't art.
    What do you mean it doesn't make sense? How can you have this much Si and call yourself INXJ? I was nearly certain I was conversing with an INxP or ISTJ.

    Music is different than language, music is probably pre-language. It's like you're saying if I don't turn raw carrot sticks and almond butter into a gourmet meal it isn't actually food.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    What do you mean it doesn't make sense? How can you have this much Si and call yourself INXJ? I was nearly certain I was conversing with an INxP or ISTJ.
    Music that lacks a purposeful arrangement of its parts harmonically and/or melodically is incoherent, as there is no sense of direction. And yes, to me music is a bit like a language but one built on tones instead of words.

    Your typing "advice" is not welcome, so desist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Music is different than language, music is probably pre-language. It's like you're saying if I don't turn raw carrot sticks and almond butter into a gourmet meal it isn't actually food.
    Music has notation, a way of translating the auditory to the visual.

    I would argue, as somebody who has studied both English and Music (seeing exposure to academia matters so much to you), that musical phrases/periods are functionally akin to sentences, as sections are to paragraphs.

    It is also kind of funny how quickly this thread is going off kilter...

  4. #84
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Maybe music has broken down but songwriting and song making as an art form is experiencing a rebirth and probably a total and more complete birth in terms of creativity since the dawn of time. Never have so many human themes been explored in such a vas arrangement of sounds with human words. So as an art form I think we ar just seeing a different angle of music where the actually sound is used to deliver a message.


    Like Mozart is good and so is the odyssey and tale of two cities but I'd we only read the classics and get keep also see the greatness in the common we lose half the range of human experience and wholeness of the psyche.


    Plus a lot of music in the past short of music from the troubadours never constituted an actual song with lyrics. Now we have words out the music so we sacrifice on one Alberto gain on another.
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Music that lacks a purposeful arrangement of its parts harmonically and/or melodically is incoherent, as there is no sense of direction. And yes, to me music is a bit like a language but one built on tones instead of words.

    Your typing "advice" is not welcome, so desist.



    Music has notation, a way of translating the auditory to the visual.

    I would argue, as somebody who has studied both English and Music (seeing exposure to academia matters so much to you), that musical phrases/periods are functionally akin to sentences, as sections are to paragraphs.

    It is also kind of funny how quickly this thread is going off kilter...

    It's largely your doing, because you are saying that something is not music unless it follows an academic pattern. That is theory, it is not true. It's as though I said Atlas Shrugged isn't a book. A book can still be a book without academically being qualified as a transcendent sort of writing that we call literature. Food can still be delicious, well prepared and artful while remaining simple. I can be moved by a Moby song just like I can by Mozart. You are trying to quantify people's emotional and visceral experiences. It's like saying a relationship is not love unless it's traditional marriage. And you flat out refuse to acknowledge popular music that does have greater complexity like fiddle solos in songs like Dixieland Delight. No it is not Baroque or Chamber but honestly, you are about a hop skip and a jump from saying only dead aristocratic white people can invent "real" music.

    Oh also - I had to take linguistics. All language is not as dependent on sentence structure as English. I have met people who originally spoke Russian or similar Eastern European language call English "a simple puzzle" if they don't find it entirely hateful and confusing, because they're like two ends of the Indo European spectrum.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's largely your doing, because you are saying that something is not music unless it follows an academic pattern. That is theory, it is not true.
    Unless you impose some kind of standards, you're left with relativism, which we instinctively know to be false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's as though I said Atlas Shrugged isn't a book. A book can still be a book without academically being qualified as a transcendent sort of writing that we call literature. Food can still be delicious, well prepared and artful while remaining simple. I can be moved by a Moby song just like I can by Mozart. You are trying to quantify people's emotional and visceral experiences.
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    And you flat out refuse to acknowledge popular music that does have greater complexity like fiddle solos in songs like Dixieland Delight. No it is not Baroque or Chamber but honestly, you are about a hop skip and a jump from saying only dead aristocratic white people can invent "real" music.
    I have never said that complexity is better, full stop. A lot of the music I write myself is actually quite simple in many ways. What I've said that there needs to be a balance between unity and variety, and that pop music generally lacks variation within a song, which is why I find it hard to feel involved listening to it. I dislike jazz, avant-garde etc music for the opposite reason.

    And FTR: I don't like all premodern music either. I like music that fulfills my aesthetic ideals, regardless of when it was written. There is some film music I like for example.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Unless you impose some kind of standards, you're left with relativism, which we instinctively know to be false.



    See above.



    I have never said that complexity is better, full stop. A lot of the music I write myself is actually quite simple in many ways. What I've said that there needs to be a balance between unity and variety, and that pop music generally lacks variation within a song, which is why I find it hard to feel involved listening to it. I dislike jazz, avant-garde etc music for the opposite reason.

    And FTR: I don't like all premodern music either. I like music that fulfills my aesthetic ideals, regardless of when it was written. There is some film music I like for example.
    Ok so you are just talking about what you like. Yes we all have standards, even Taylor Swift sounds better than an eight year old screeching a nursery rhyme, we don't put that on the radio.

    My intention is to explain that I studied English literature, part of my interest in French and Russian are because I gave read French and Russian literature translated into English. However, I still didn't study Russian literature in Russian. ..only Onegin was actually written in the three languages originally, and it crossed boundaries between poetry and prose, between East and West, between the Romantic period and it's considered the birth of Russian Realism. Do I go around, then, telling people who are reading Gone Girl that they aren't actually reading a novel? Nope. They are, and they are learning and experiencing something through it, just as I do reading a Raymond Chandler mystery.

    But more to the point, to say English is the only language in which I can make a novel or even literature is pure crap. And that sounds like what you are saying to me, like you think your language and culture is the only real one.

    And again, to meet in the middle with you, I do understand the complexity argument, I find some popular music so elementary and basic (such as "new country") listening to it makes me want to run away screaming. But that doesn't mean all country or popular music utterly lacks complexity, or that it doesn't serve it's purpose. Common man needs his things just like the aesthete or academic, some ears don't even recognize musical complexity, and some people's eyes would glaze over just from those few sentences I wrote about Eugene Onegin, a very important book.

  8. #88
    The Green Jolly Robin H.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's largely your doing, because you are saying that something is not music unless it follows an academic pattern. That is theory, it is not true. It's as though I said Atlas Shrugged isn't a book. A book can still be a book without academically being qualified as a transcendent sort of writing that we call literature. Food can still be delicious, well prepared and artful while remaining simple. I can be moved by a Moby song just like I can by Mozart. You are trying to quantify people's emotional and visceral experiences. It's like saying a relationship is not love unless it's traditional marriage. And you flat out refuse to acknowledge popular music that does have greater complexity like fiddle solos in songs like Dixieland Delight. No it is not Baroque or Chamber but honestly, you are about a hop skip and a jump from saying only dead aristocratic white people can invent "real" music.

    Oh also - I had to take linguistics. All language is not as dependent on sentence structure as English. I have met people who originally spoke Russian or similar Eastern European language call English "a simple puzzle" if they don't find it entirely hateful and confusing, because they're like two ends of the Indo European spectrum.
    I agree. A lexicon or gold standard is one of the ways a few people can exert or control a large group and is a means that supports institutionalize do racism in many case scenarios.
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    Olemn slammed his hammer and from the sparks on the metal of his anvil came the spheres of the heavens.

    Sayrah blew life into the spheres and they moved. From her wheel she weaved the names of people in to mystery.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Ok so you are just talking about what you like. Yes we all have standards, even Taylor Swift sounds better than an eight year old screeching a nursery rhyme, we don't put that on the radio.

    My intention is to explain that I studied English literature, part of my interest in French and Russian are because I gave read French and Russian literature translated into English. However, I still didn't study Russian literature in Russian. ..only Onegin was actually written in the three languages originally, and it crossed boundaries between poetry and prose, between East and West, between the Romantic period and it's considered the birth of Russian Realism. Do I go around, then, telling people who are reading Gone Girl that they aren't actually reading a novel? Nope. They are, and they are learning and experiencing something through it, just as I do reading a Raymond Chandler mystery.

    But more to the point, to say English is the only language in which I can make a novel or even literature is pure crap. And that sounds like what you are saying to me, like you think your language and culture is the only real one.

    And again, to meet in the middle with you, I do understand the complexity argument, I find some popular music so elementary and basic (such as "new country") listening to it makes me want to run away screaming. But that doesn't mean all country or popular music utterly lacks complexity, or that it doesn't serve it's purpose. Common man needs his things just like the aesthete or academic, some ears don't even recognize musical complexity, and some people's eyes would glaze over just from those few sentences I wrote about Eugene Onegin, a very important book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    It's largely your doing, because you are saying that something is not music unless it follows an academic pattern. That is theory, it is not true. It's as though I said Atlas Shrugged isn't a book. A book can still be a book without academically being qualified as a transcendent sort of writing that we call literature. Food can still be delicious, well prepared and artful while remaining simple. I can be moved by a Moby song just like I can by Mozart. You are trying to quantify people's emotional and visceral experiences. It's like saying a relationship is not love unless it's traditional marriage. And you flat out refuse to acknowledge popular music that does have greater complexity like fiddle solos in songs like Dixieland Delight. No it is not Baroque or Chamber but honestly, you are about a hop skip and a jump from saying only dead aristocratic white people can invent "real" music.

    Oh also - I had to take linguistics. All language is not as dependent on sentence structure as English. I have met people who originally spoke Russian or similar Eastern European language call English "a simple puzzle" if they don't find it entirely hateful and confusing, because they're like two ends of the Indo European spectrum.

    This, exactly.

    @SilentMusings, Marm or anyone else can not put it any more simply or plainly then this. You simply have strong opinions on what you think music "should" be.

    Music is ultimately defined by the listeners.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by GarrotTheThief View Post
    I agree. A lexicon or gold standard is one of the ways a few people can exert or control a large group and is a means that supports institutionalize do racism in many case scenarios.
    It's one of the reasons I brought up Onegin specifically, because although the original is mostly Russian, it contains French and English in order to make a comment about aristocratic ideas in Europe at the time, and those were two of the first languages it was translated into in the 20th century, as well as German.

    Nabokov continued to use this trick, a Russian man writing an English novel, Lolita, which contains blurbs of pretentious French for both cultural and comedic effect.

    Racism has a nasty history that also made some parts of Europe more "important" than others, not to mention cultures on other continents.

    Originally "country" music had fairly complex though non academic roots in Scots Irish traditional music, a fairly hated group in the United States at one time.

    There's definitely a racist undertone that should go without saying when measuring jazz and the original rock and roll, against African Americans, it was called negro music.
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