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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    No. Early unreleased Lana del Rey and Karen Drescher Anderson as Fever Rey. You know the expression "people who are bored are boring"? Same with people who complain about music. My dad was a musician, I have been a music fanatic since I was six, and while I poo poo certain epochs or artists, I am largely disgusted more with people who don't know who MIA and the Xx and London Grammar are, tbph. It's like you sat down in the sand and wanted to cry about the Cure and Nirvana, I have about as much sympathy for you as attractive people who can't get laid because their standard is unrealistic.
    Why d'you think that most of us are unaware of those peoples' music?

    I have quite specific tastes and needs due to my musical training and don't listen to pop music anyway, but most of humanity just isn't exposed to music the industry neglects to advertise.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Why d'you think that most of us are unaware of those peoples' music?

    I have quite specific tastes and needs due to my musical training and don't listen to pop music anyway, but most of humanity just isn't exposed to music the industry neglects to advertise.

    I have musical training and no a lot of people don't know they exist, you have been trained to not listen to popular music in order to limit your own creativity. I feel sorry for you.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I have musical training and no a lot of people don't know they exist, you have been trained to not listen to popular music in order to limit your own creativity. I feel sorry for you.
    "I feel sorry for you".

    I am not a relativist. Pop music does not require the same creative talent that classical music does. Successfully writing for a full orchestra, for example, is not easy. Doing so within the classical framework of strict form and harmonic rules - while creating memorable melodies and developing them - is even more challenging, and requires an understanding of theory and raw talent that many people just don't possess.

    I could list all the things I find aesthetically repellent about pop music here but it wouldn't change anybody's mind, so let's leave it. But don't call me creatively challenged without posting examples of your own work.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    "I feel sorry for you".

    I am not a relativist. Pop music does not require the same creative talent that classical music does. Successfully writing for a full orchestra, for example, is not easy. Doing so within the classical framework of strict form and harmonic rules - while creating memorable melodies and developing them - is even more challenging, and requires an understanding of theory and raw talent that many people just don't possess.

    I could list all the things I find aesthetically repellent about pop music here but it wouldn't change anybody's mind, so let's leave it. But don't call me creatively challenged without posting examples of your own work.
    Enjoy your pedantic party. Most people who are Si wired to the rightness of their chosen academic field make the same argument. There's a certain skill of complexity related to orchestra and ballet, but it doesn't take the soul or beauty of jazz or modern dance. You saying what you are saying is virtually identical to saying modern day American people are superior to Cherokee tribes, and that's frankly open to debate, son.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Enjoy your pedantic party. Most people who are Si wired to the rightness of their chosen academic field make the same argument. There's a certain skill of complexity related to orchestra and ballet, but it doesn't take the soul or beauty of jazz or modern dance. You saying what you are saying is virtually identical to saying modern day American people are superior to Cherokee tribes, and that's frankly open to debate, son.
    Any sincere artist will have an emotional connection to their work; and I'm not here to deny that modern music can be sincere and deeply felt. It just doesn't appeal to me. Music that only uses four chords and pulsating rhythms doesn't show much creativity. I am also frustrated by the poor songwriting - the choice of subject matter and the words themselves.

    And BTW: I'm learning to compose my own songs and hope to complete my first set next year. I promise that if I'm still on here by the time I've finished one, I'll at the very least upload the score.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Any sincere artist will have an emotional connection to their work; and I'm not here to deny that modern music can be sincere and deeply felt. It just doesn't appeal to me. Music that only uses four chords and pulsating rhythms doesn't show much creativity. I am also frustrated by the poor songwriting - the choice of subject matter and the words themselves.

    And BTW: I'm learning to compose my own songs and hope to complete my first set next year. I promise that if I'm still on here by the time I've finished one, I'll at the very least upload the score.
    Ok I'd like to hear your music. I have heard some of Simulated Worlds music, and I find he actually agreed with me about popular music, if anything taking it to a more egalitarian extreme in his arguments. I listen to a lot of jazz when I'm not listening to more current music, I have to say some electronic music has almost as much complexity as older music, and popular artists like Adele or Tori Amos showcase opera level talent with their voices, which is why I say I feel sorry for you, it's like you're dismissing a lot of good music, it's not all catchy dance tracks (not that there's anything wrong with some of those, as well).

    I actually really admire the overall creativity of my current popular favorite Lana del Rey, because she shows it lyrically, visually, conceptually, and vocally she continues to improve, she sounds practically the exact same live and today released "Big Eyes" that focuses more on her vocalizations.

    Creativity takes many forms. Some musical people are good dancers. I took to dancing when I was younger, and still credit my musical genes for that.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Ok I'd like to hear your music. I have heard some of Simulated Worlds music, and I find he actually agreed with me about popular music, if anything taking it to a more egalitarian extreme in his arguments. I listen to a lot of jazz when I'm not listening to more current music, I have to say some electronic music has almost as much complexity as older music, and popular artists like Adele or Tori Amos showcase opera level talent with their voices, which is why I say I feel sorry for you, it's like you're dismissing a lot of good music, it's not all catchy dance tracks (not that there's anything wrong with some of those, as well).
    I posted a few fragments a while ago, though my style has changed since then.

    To satisfy me, music must have order (i.e. a defined formal structure), clear melodies, tonality and a balance between unity and variety. Contemporary Pop music fails to meet the last criterion, and Electronic music fails to meet the first three. I enjoy more sophisticated pop music, whereas electronic and jazz just make me feel sick.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I actually really admire the overall creativity of my current popular favorite Lana del Rey, because she shows it lyrically, visually, conceptually, and vocally she continues to improve, she sounds practically the exact same live and today released "Big Eyes" that focuses more on her vocalizations.
    You are trying to move this conversation away from the music to how it is presented - this is the paradigm shift I was talking about. Lana del Rey, like the great majority of "artists", would actually fail high school music I took this http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4CIOeiVW6M...y+-+Ride+3.png song of hers, "Ride", and analysed it. The song moves from G to D minor in the key of C many times. This is a 5-2 movement, which is forbidden (unlike 2-5).

    Before you go ape shit understand that every harmonic system has rules, and in the tonal system 5 moves to 1 or 6 (there are exceptions, but 5-2 is not one of them).

    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Creativity takes many forms. Some musical people are good dancers. I took to dancing when I was younger, and still credit my musical genes for that.
    If everybody took up your attitude we'd consider Taylor Swift the equal of Beethoven. Sure, we're all different. That doesn't mean that we're all equally talented.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I posted a few fragments a while ago, though my style has changed since then.

    To satisfy me, music must have order (i.e. a defined formal structure), clear melodies, tonality and a balance between unity and variety. Contemporary Pop music fails to meet the last criterion, and Electronic music fails to meet the first three. I enjoy more sophisticated pop music, whereas electronic and jazz just make me feel sick.



    You are trying to move this conversation away from the music to how it is presented - this is the paradigm shift I was talking about. Lana del Rey, like the great majority of "artists", would actually fail high school music I took this http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4CIOeiVW6M...y+-+Ride+3.png song of hers, "Ride", and analysed it. The song moves from G to D minor in the key of C many times. This is a 5-2 movement, which is forbidden (unlike 2-5).

    Before you go ape shit understand that every harmonic system has rules, and in the tonal system 5 moves to 1 or 6 (there are exceptions, but 5-2 is not one of them).



    If everybody took up your attitude we'd consider Taylor Swift the equal of Beethoven. Sure, we're all different. That doesn't mean that we're all equally talented.

    So...... Pop music is less creative because it doesn't follow the rules?
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  9. #59
    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    Why d'you think that most of us are unaware of those peoples' music?

    I have quite specific tastes and needs due to my musical training and don't listen to pop music anyway, but most of humanity just isn't exposed to music the industry neglects to advertise.

    Oh come on. We all have access to the internet. Most of the world's population has. If anyone is complaining about not having access to interesting music, it's their own fault, not the industry's. The industry is not entitled to anyway, their sole interest is making money.

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    Senior Member pinkgraffiti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Ok I'd like to hear your music. I have heard some of Simulated Worlds music, and I find he actually agreed with me about popular music, if anything taking it to a more egalitarian extreme in his arguments. I listen to a lot of jazz when I'm not listening to more current music, I have to say some electronic music has almost as much complexity as older music, and popular artists like Adele or Tori Amos showcase opera level talent with their voices, which is why I say I feel sorry for you, it's like you're dismissing a lot of good music, it's not all catchy dance tracks (not that there's anything wrong with some of those, as well).

    I actually really admire the overall creativity of my current popular favorite Lana del Rey, because she shows it lyrically, visually, conceptually, and vocally she continues to improve, she sounds practically the exact same live and today released "Big Eyes" that focuses more on her vocalizations.

    Creativity takes many forms. Some musical people are good dancers. I took to dancing when I was younger, and still credit my musical genes for that.
    Yes! AND....jazz artists have always taken info from popular music. Music is music, there are seriously no barriers. Led Zeppelin, Sonic Youth, have explored modal compositions, there is just so much richness and variety in music, of all genres, from which all genres can drink,and no, you don't need a classical education to be able to appreciate classical music, nor jazz. You need to want to, you need to have the passion for music, that is all. But again, we have the internet, everything is available to us, all we need is time and wish.
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