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  1. #41
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    The definitions do seem to account for intention. So it is hard to tell for sure.

    But generally, trolls lie, exaggerate, misrepresent, and often even openly enjoy the chaos and disruption they create. When you see these behaviors, they are evidence of trolling.

    I think there are behaviors that are somewhat similar to trolling, but are not. They include things like:

    1) Playing Devil's advocate.
    2) Trying to create cognitive dissonance. (A necessary thing to change a person's mind in a rational way.)
    3) Pointing out injustices by authorities.
    4) Just kidding around.
    This is very good. Thank you for the defining lines.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  2. #42
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    So, my next question is how do you troll [as in the luring way] a troll? When does a troll get trolled? Kind of like when does the hunter become the hunted? So, when does the troll become the trolled?
    If we return to the verb, the act of fishing, it's easier to contemplate. From the metaphor, the 'fisher' and the 'fished' inhabit very different spaces. One is an inhabitant of air, the other of water. An actual fish is also outmaneuvered by virtue of the cognitive difference between species so there is very little it can do to avoid taking the bait. If the fish had the experience or intelligence to recognize the deception of the lure it could avoid being deceived. Or if the fish knew where the fisherman was likely to be fishing, it could inhabit a space in the water where the lure had less probability of reaching.

    The concept here is that the troll sees him or herself as inhabiting a superior or different space (cognitively and/or emotionally) than the average person, so the best defense against being trolled is primarily to recognize and avoid.

    To take it further (as you seem to be wondering about) we'll stick with the same metaphor. For the best offense you must either inhabit the space of the person fishing or you must bring that person to an alternate domain (ie the water). If one was to choose inhabiting the air (demonstrating they're on the same level), trolling a troll when you're not a troll merely signals you're hip to or you like playing that game, and regardless of either truth it doesn't stop the behaviour, it only makes it acceptable. Bringing a troll to the water however would be the same as being surrounded by a lot of fish who don't try to catch each other and don't want to be fished, so the social pressure to conform any asshat behaviour to the group standard would have a better chance to prevail. A troll's voice is then essentially drowned out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching
    Likes prplchknz liked this post

  3. #43
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    To me, a troll is someone who gets angry when the other person asks a question[...]
    Then starts sending silly-assed rep comments and using the @notification system to troll the person like a 12-year-old child.

  4. #44
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    First, to avoid being caught. If we return to the verb, the act of fishing, it's easier to contemplate. From the metaphor, the 'fisher' and the 'fished' inhabit very different spaces. One is an inhabitant of air, the other of water. An actual fish is also outmaneuvered by virtue of the cognitive difference between species so there is very little it can do to avoid taking the bait. If the fish had the experience or intelligence to recognize the deception of the lure it could avoid being deceived. Or if the fish knew where the fisherman was likely to be fishing, it could inhabit a space in the water where the lure had less probability of reaching.

    The concept here is that the troll sees him or herself as inhabiting a superior or different space (cognitively and/or emotionally) than the average person, so the best defense against being trolled primarily to recognize and avoid.

    Next, to take it further (as you seem to be wondering about) we'll stick with the same metaphor. For the best offense you must either inhabit the space of the person fishing or you must bring that person to an alternate domain (ie the water). If one was to choose inhabiting the air (demonstrating they're on the same level), trolling a troll when you're not a troll merely signals you're hip to or you like playing that game, and regardless of either truth it doesn't stop the behaviour, it only makes it acceptable. Bringing a troll to the water however would be the same as being surrounded by a lot of fish who don't try to catch each other and don't want to be fished, so the social pressure to conform any asshat behaviour to the group standard would have a better chance to prevail. A troll's voice is then essentially drowned out.
    This is a very well-thought out reply with lots of insight. Thank you, @PeaceBaby for taking time out to think about these things and to respond. Sometimes, I think it does good to discuss such things. I love the analogy of a fish and a fisherman inhabiting different spaces.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  5. #45
    is indra's Avatar
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    An alternative to the bridge troll analogy -

    People were said to have been trawling when making blanket statements meant to cause unrest. Like fishing with a trawling net.

    Then it was bastardized into trolling.
    tiny purple fishes run laughing through your fingers
    and you want to take her with you, to the hard land of the winter

  6. #46
    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunyata View Post
    An alternative to the bridge troll analogy -

    People were said to have been trawling when making blanket statements meant to cause unrest. Like fishing with a trawling net.

    Then it was bastardized into trolling.
    Yeah, I've seen that a few times.
    Very good point.
    A student said to his master: "You teach me fighting, but you talk about peace. How do you reconcile the two?" The master replied: "It is better to be a warrior in a garden than to be a gardener in a war." - unknown/Chinese

    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...=61024&page=14

  7. #47
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    @Coriolis. I'm not talking about someone asking an innocent question and the other person is having a bad day and reacts negatively, talking about someone going in there and actively manipulating the situation to get a reaction, so they're not the troll but the person who reacted negatively is? I bet you think people who hack other people's brains are completely innocent. I'm not saying the person who reacted negatively shouldn't get in trouble, I'm saying recognize that the other person is not as innocent as they claim it's why serial killers if they have the right amount of outward charm can live in our society have successful careers ect, and kill over 50 people get away with for 30-50 years, because they're smart they know how to work the system. and if the idea of a troll is someone's intent is to cause unrest, then the person with the stick is in fact a troll.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  8. #48
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    @Coriolis. I'm not talking about someone asking an innocent question and the other person is having a bad day and reacts negatively, talking about someone going in there and actively manipulating the situation to get a reaction, so they're not the troll but the person who reacted negatively is? I bet you think people who hack other people's brains are completely innocent. I'm not saying the person who reacted negatively shouldn't get in trouble, I'm saying recognize that the other person is not as innocent as they claim it's why serial killers if they have the right amount of outward charm can live in our society have successful careers ect, and kill over 50 people get away with for 30-50 years, because they're smart they know how to work the system. and if the idea of a troll is someone's intent is to cause unrest, then the person with the stick is in fact a troll.
    Unless you can come up with a reliable method to identify what someone's true intention is, you have just presented an explanation that may be sound in theory, but is useless in practice. That is my point. When confronted by behavior that may (or may not) be actual trolling by your definition, what to do? There are many possible courses of action, but as soon as I lose control of my own response, I become no better than the troll. To use PB's analogy, I am climbing out of the water into troll-space to engage him, thereby legitimizing his approach.

    I like @PeaceBaby's explanation, partly because it emphasizes the role of bystanders in these interaction. Collective disapproval requires input from more than just the target of the troll. I have long thought that we would need less moderator intervention if ordinary members would call potential trolls on their behavior early on, before an interaction escalates. Someone who is not a troll and has just given offense carelessly or though ignorance is usually quick to apologize or at least to explain him/herself.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #49
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Unless you can come up with a reliable method to identify what someone's true intention is, you have just presented an explanation that may be sound in theory, but is useless in practice. That is my point. When confronted by behavior that may (or may not) be actual trolling by your definition, what to do? There are many possible courses of action, but as soon as I lose control of my own response, I become no better than the troll.
    I didn't think we were discussing practicality in this thread, but rather what is. There really isn't a thing that can be done, except maybe not respond to the person at all. I thought this thread was defining what a troll is. not what a troll is and how to snare it aka ban it.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #50
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    I didn't think we were discussing practicality in this thread, but rather what is. There really isn't a thing that can be done, except maybe not respond to the person at all. I thought this thread was defining what a troll is. not what a troll is and how to snare it aka ban it.
    Are you interested in being able to recognize an actual troll online, and tell the difference between a troll and someone whose remarks are stirring things up unintentionally? I suppose it didn't occur to me that the OP meant for a purely academic discussion, but that it quite possible.

    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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