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  1. #61
    Glamour puss with a tan Raffaella's Avatar
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    It's also strange befriending a very vocal bigot that's against your minority group and is completely oblivious to it. You realise how deep their hatred is and at the same time what views you can change if you appear knowledgable in the area.
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  2. #62
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    This. But also, people who won't shut up about their ideology even if it's aligned with mine also grate me. I ask them, internally and rhetorically--why fixate your identity on one thing and one thing only?
    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    I identify primarily with my moral code, so having no superego would be like having no identity.
    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    I feel like the people jscrothers is talking about are people I would think of as "political", whose ideologies are the basis for how they relate.
    "The basis of," yeah.

    The whole thing depends upon how nuanced the 'ideology' is. If it's at the top level, say, "don't do bad things to people, try not to be a dick" or "encourage personal freedom," then it's a solid landmark through which to navigate life and to shape one's identity. If it's at too nuanced a level, such as "abortion is wrong," or "I, personally, am gay," well, those aren't so solid. They can be huge personal issues, for sure. Not all of life is about abortion or sexual orientation. At that point, one's ideology is a blinder--a very narrow lens through which all of life is seen.

    I'm always hesitant to give personal examples, but screw it. I also have to preface the following with "I am pretty damn tolerant," because I'm sure that someone will read the first few lines and draw some judgments from there and wreck the chance at a meaningful conversation.

    One of my gay acquaintances is fixated wholly upon his sexual preference. Everything he says and does is related to it, all the time. Every joke is about homosexuality, every single male over 30's potential sexual preference is analyzed, every documentary he recommends delves into that subject and that subject only. Lots of dick jokes.

    This is different from, say, a gay pride rally; where folks band together for a singular cause to spread a message. Good, spreading awareness and reducing stigma. Communicating that--hey, just because someone is gay, it doesn't follow that he's a person to be avoided. There's much more to him than that tiny sliver of his life.

    Spreading awareness and reducing stigma is good. But my friend isn't going to persuade me or our other friends, as we're as accepting of homosexuality just as most people are of, say, blue eyes. He's fixated on that one aspect of himself. It hasn't worked well for him. But from a completely selfish perspective, the broken record can be grating.

    Additionally, there are things about me that I know that many others wouldn't accept. They're a large part of my life and of how I've been shaped, but I simply don't define myself by them. They don't permeate every discussion, they're not the cause of every problem I have, and, most importantly, they themselves are not me.
    J. Scott Crothers
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  3. #63
    A wannabe dog
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    Would you ever be friends with a murderer?

    No. So why would you want to be friends with a racist homophobe? Those people have corrupted values, and to me, a friend with corrupted values shouldn't even be my friend at all.
    And it's not even about having different values, if a friend has different values I am still able to accept it, but it's about their values being corrupted that I am unable to accept.
    I get angry whenever I see people being mean toward others. So how am I supposed to befriend people whom I am always constantly mad at? Friends are supposed to be people whom we enjoy being around, not people who constantly make us mad and get on our nerves.
    And whether we are aware of this or not, our friends usually end up impacting us with their personality and we usually end up picking some of their traits subconsciously. For example, people who hang out with smokers eventually became smokers themselves. It takes LOTS of willpower for a person to be able to resist peer pressure.
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  4. #64
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I want to say no, but I posed with the problem of quantifying bigotry, because mild degrees of prejudice are so common. I'm not sure I can say I absolutely do not befriend racists or homophobes, but there is only so much I can tolerate and I admittedly don't know exactly how I determine how much that is.

    I guess what it is is that whenever anyone I've considered a friend said something prejudicial, it was A) more like the unwittingly expression of prejudicial content rather than an expression of conscious antipathy, and B) they've generally been pretty reasonable if I've decided to point out my objections.

    I don't believe I have been or could be friends with someone that actually consciously hates other races or homosexual people, or someone that becomes defensive if I am critical of prejudicial statements.
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  5. #65
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    In that case, I am pretty political, or at least that was a phase I went through. I am a little more chill again.
    Perhaps you are more outspoken and focused on it at this point, though I doubt you have turned this into your identity. I think you are in a very identity-defining phase of life (me, too, still) and are figuring out how to orient yourself to something that has been a major force in your life for so long. I will expound more below.

    Quote Originally Posted by jscrothers View Post
    "The basis of," yeah.

    The whole thing depends upon how nuanced the 'ideology' is. If it's at the top level, say, "don't do bad things to people, try not to be a dick" or "encourage personal freedom," then it's a solid landmark through which to navigate life and to shape one's identity. If it's at too nuanced a level, such as "abortion is wrong," or "I, personally, am gay," well, those aren't so solid. They can be huge personal issues, for sure. Not all of life is about abortion or sexual orientation. At that point, one's ideology is a blinder--a very narrow lens through which all of life is seen.

    I'm always hesitant to give personal examples, but screw it. I also have to preface the following with "I am pretty damn tolerant," because I'm sure that someone will read the first few lines and draw some judgments from there and wreck the chance at a meaningful conversation.

    One of my gay acquaintances is fixated wholly upon his sexual preference. Everything he says and does is related to it, all the time. Every joke is about homosexuality, every single male over 30's potential sexual preference is analyzed, every documentary he recommends delves into that subject and that subject only. Lots of dick jokes.

    This is different from, say, a gay pride rally; where folks band together for a singular cause to spread a message. Good, spreading awareness and reducing stigma. Communicating that--hey, just because someone is gay, it doesn't follow that he's a person to be avoided. There's much more to him than that tiny sliver of his life.

    Spreading awareness and reducing stigma is good. But my friend isn't going to persuade me or our other friends, as we're as accepting of homosexuality just as most people are of, say, blue eyes. He's fixated on that one aspect of himself. It hasn't worked well for him. But from a completely selfish perspective, the broken record can be grating.

    Additionally, there are things about me that I know that many others wouldn't accept. They're a large part of my life and of how I've been shaped, but I simply don't define myself by them. They don't permeate every discussion, they're not the cause of every problem I have, and, most importantly, they themselves are not me.
    I know what you mean... People whose ideology or stance becomes their identity. I had a falling out with a former friend who decided to spend two hours lecturing me on the "queer community" and using me as an example of a white-bread heterosexual. She had no idea what my orientation even was, because she never asked! She was too busy being the voice of the queer community, which really isn't even fair to the group she's trying to represent because she's, you know, not them, and it's not like she's organizing rallies or donating to causes or leading people. She's just making herself feel special.

    When people "become" a cause - certainly there are people who have done much for human rights and equality by championing certain causes. And for some people, their work entails promoting certain values - I know mine currently does. And then there are people who are... Well, just kind of self-absorbed about the whole thing. I suspect a major difference lies in how much productive action each person actually ends up taking.
    Last edited by skylights; 10-02-2014 at 06:14 PM. Reason: Left out a word, lol

  6. #66
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    You know it's possible to seperate people from their beliefs. To be intolerant of beliefs and tolerate the person.

    Hate the bigotry.
    Love the bigot.
    This
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  7. #67
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    No, I'm very selective on who I call friend. I will vocally tolerate an acquaintance depending on circumstances. I can't imagine a scenario where one would want to be friends with me, I'm pretty liberal.

  8. #68
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I have some family members who are or have been some degree of racist/sexist/homophobic, and I love them and haven't rejected them. However, once I decided to confront my learned biases and do everything I could to uproot them, I realized I couldn't stand by and let them feel comfortable making bigoted comments and jokes around me. Most of them have become less racist/sexist/homophobic over time, though I think that is more due to general societal shifts than to me standing up to them. But like other have said, while I would be open to spending time with anyone who was able to have a civil conversation about their biases, it's unlikely that a friendship would develop- for a few reasons, not the least of which that I doubt they would want to be friends with somebody as liberal as I am. I'm afraid I don't have it in me to spend a lot of energy trying to convince people they're wrong when they're clearly not willing to give it up.

    In a related story, the guy this guy is talking about is pretty awesome:


  9. #69
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
    Would you ever be friends with a murderer?
    why did they commit murder? that's a factor that needs to be assessed. like the racist homophobe thing, is it they are because of their upbringing and truly don't know any better? or is it some other reason? you got to ask questions in this vein before you can write someone off based on their beliefs, no matter how fucked up or twisted.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #70
    Google "chemtrails" Bush Did 9/11's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Complexity View Post
    Would you ever be friends with a murderer?
    Been there, done that. Learned the hard way. Everyone deserves compassion, I guess, but there's only so much one person can give.
    Last edited by Bush Did 9/11; 10-03-2014 at 06:37 PM.
    J. Scott Crothers
    aka "Bush Did 9/11"
    Founder, Truthtology, est. 1952
    Prophet and Channel, God Almighty
    Author, the Holy scripture Elevenetics

    "Just as jet fuel cannot melt steel beams, so too cannot the unshakeable pillars of Truthtology ever be shaken, whether by man, nature, or evidence."
    - Elevenetics

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