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  1. #151
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    I'll stew over your question tonight, as I do not have an answer to the whole question tonight. I will say, however, that oppression constitutes treating people unfairly and/or differently for reasons either partly or wholly beyond their control without their consent.

    What is unfair? I will think about it, as well.
    I think you've framed that in such a way as to provide a rationalisation for the course of action you believe to be legitimate on the grounds of an affective judgement.

    I'll maybe simplify that a little, gays are in favour, no one messes with the gays, christians are out of favour, anyone can mess with them as much as they like. That's the affective judgement. The rationalisation provides the basis for any action, including exclusion from employment or owning a business, on what would appear at first glance to be nice reasonable, non-discriminatory basis but really its just the affective judgement underpinning it all.

    When "the world turns again" perhaps those roles will be reversed.

    And so it goes, I dont see any serious action to ameliorate any unjust arrangement, I just see public life coming more and more to resemble a 1980s high school sort of politics with the in-groups and the out-groups and everyone chasing a lot of key words or responding to trigger words or events/incidents.

  2. #152
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    I still think that the way Fidelia framed this discussion was better than the OP, the thread begins with a loaded question, who wants to be friends with someone who is abjectly evil? Another example it the question "how long has it been since you stopped beating your partner?"

    Until you realise its whats meant by the key words in the first place which matters, lots of people dont realise that George Orwell was an avowed socialist, it shocks the right and makes the left wing bold, until its realised that Orwell wrote that he wanted to work towards socialism, as he understood it, that's pretty important because its a pretty idiosyncratic idea as he understood it which probably wouldnt please the right wing because its not the cut out villain but equally wouldnt be recognisable as praiseworthy to a lot of the left wing either.

    One persons racist homophobe may be anothers something else entirely. Is Marcus Garvey, Malcolm X, Luis Farrakha (spelling) or Chuck D a racist? They've all in varying degrees recommended racial seperatism as part of an ethno-nationalist idea? Are zionists the equivalent of aryan nationalists? Either during the thirties and forties or now? That's even more you begin to discuss the more complicated, needlessly, use of the term homophobia, often to stifle any discussion of homosexuality which may be deemed to fall short of the, from a given perspective, validation and recommendation as a universal norm.

    There's no doubt that racism and homophobia are terrible things, probably for the people experiencing them as much as whatever harm they may do to others as a result of possessing those beliefs, although those things are also labels which at the present time are easily deployed by people who dont really want to talk or, in my experience, think too much about certain challenging topics or issues, what they want is agreement, by whatever short cuts they can take, or simply a resounding "hear, hear" or cheer from others.

    You get a lot of that online, in part because the online world proves to be a refuge for a hell of a lot of people who find the off line world a pretty harsh place, its the place you can go when all you want is that back slapping, resounding praise and unconditional support and there's a lot of different online forums which are rigged that way, deliberately so, I'm not talking about forums like this one incidentially before anyone thinks that is implied.

    Although, not least because the online and offline realities permeate one another more and more these days, I'd question why wanting or needing that unanimity and uniform opinion is such a good thing at all, either on the level of the individual dealing with their stresses and strains, or a societal level which is going to oft necessity experience much more conflict and competition between rival, diverse, differing opinion than I would hope anyone does personally.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What about absolutism itself, Fascism and the Imperial system?
    Fascism is authoritarian rather than totalitarian; and Imperialism is territorial rather than totalitarian.

  4. #154
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    What about absolutism itself, Fascism and the Imperial system? The reason nobody has mentioned them so far is simply because they haven't acquired the negative connotations of Communism, Islam and especially NS. This is a direct consequence of WWII and the power structures that have been in place ever since.
    The reason absolutism and imperialism were not mentioned is that they have been out of practice in most places readily available to the western awareness. Fascism was mentioned, just dubbed it National Socialism, because that is how the Nazis called it when they adapted Mussolini for Germany.

  5. #155
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not sure I could be friends with someone who was aggressively promoting homosexuality, I've tried in the past but the fact I dont and cant share their passion for it is usually an obstacle, there's a lot of things which people dont think you should be neutral about or have no opinion on or strong feelings about.

    I tend to find it pretty ironic because the same people would see themselves as nothing like evangelical religious sorts but I think they've got very similar personality traits and character structures.
    Quote Originally Posted by 93JC View Post
    ^"Could a racist homophobe be friends with someone who isn't?"
    Tehe
    .

  6. #156
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I think you've framed that in such a way as to provide a rationalisation for the course of action you believe to be legitimate on the grounds of an affective judgement.

    I'll maybe simplify that a little, gays are in favour, no one messes with the gays, christians are out of favour, anyone can mess with them as much as they like. That's the affective judgement. The rationalisation provides the basis for any action, including exclusion from employment or owning a business, on what would appear at first glance to be nice reasonable, non-discriminatory basis but really its just the affective judgement underpinning it all.

    When "the world turns again" perhaps those roles will be reversed.

    And so it goes, I dont see any serious action to ameliorate any unjust arrangement, I just see public life coming more and more to resemble a 1980s high school sort of politics with the in-groups and the out-groups and everyone chasing a lot of key words or responding to trigger words or events/incidents.
    Ideally, popular morality should wipe out those who refuse service to others. Denying businessrights is redundant. As far as employment goes, however, all that should matter is somebody's ability to do the job.

    If Hitler was a good cook, and I was hungry enough, I'd eat a hamburger he made, even if I hated his ideas.
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    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

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