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  1. #131
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    I would get a bunch of bible verses and old watchtower quotes thrown at me (she is Jehovah's Witness), and she would tell me how my generation has no morals. She might say something really unreasonable like "if you are fine with faggots, why not go around killing people?"

    She is especially strong with SJ...
    Jesus Christ.

    Sounds like a solid argument.
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  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Because a closer look would reveal that you would indeed have to add an 'any' to the definition?
    No. I'd ask why you said this, but I doubt I'd get a meaningful response.

    Have you thought about their meaning in your formula, the sort of criterion they constitute
    Yes. That is why I put them there.

    and how it affects your ability to objectively determine hypocrisy,
    This part makes no sense.

    Determining hypocrisy is easy. If someone preaches a doctrine and does not practice that same doctrine, then that someone is a hypocrite.

    You are welcome to tell me what you meant by your original statement. In fact, it would save us a lot of time if you did.
    Ok. I doubt it will be better than just saying what I mean in English, but if you want a pedantic version of my plain statement, here you go:

    Original statement: "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against X, it's easy to tolerate X, whether X is "people with black skin", or "people with conservative political opinions"."

    Context of original statement: the post was about people who are hypocrites, because they preach tolerance, but fail to practice it

    Tolerance definition:"Merriam-Webster: willingness to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own. I would add to that list characteristics that a person can't control: 'has black skin', 'is transsexual', 'has bad acne', 'is ugly', 'has blond hair', etc. "

    Pedantic version:
    let different(a, b, r) = "person a has r different from person b"
    let reject_for_reason(a, b, r) = "person a rejects person b because of reason r"
    let bad_reasons = {"feelings", "habits", "beliefs", "uncontrollable things"}
    let tolerate(a, b, r) = "r is in bad_reasons and different(a, b, r) and not reject_for_reason(a, b, r)"
    let prejudiced_about(a, r) = "for some person b such that different(a, b, r); person a wants to reject person b"
    let easy(t) = "thing t is easy"
    statement: for all persons a, for all r in bad_reasons; if (not prejudiced_about(a, r)) then easy(for all persons b; tolerate(a, b, r))

    So far, none of your attempts to correct my interpretation seem to contradict it.
    I have no idea what your interpretation is, if anything. If you want it corrected, maybe you should try stating it clearly.

    The 'irrational' in 'irrational prejudice', as I said, unable to do the job.
    What? You have not said this before. What makes you think this?

    Do you always miss the point on purpose?
    I find it incredibly ironic that you are asking me this.

    I wrote a list of things I am intolerant of to show that I can be intolerant of these things and still preach tolerance without hypocrisy. What these things are is of no importance.
    What those things are is of great importance. They are the only thing that gives us any idea what your "principle behind them" is. And if any one of those things you are intolerant of has no justification (whether it's an explicit list or determined by a principle), then you would be a hypocrite.

    What if I were to randomly insert an 'any' in your statement, in just the right spot to make you look bad but not to represent what you actually said, would you appreciate it? If not, what is your justification for treating me in this way?

    Did you really want me to point out that there are different forms of nationalism
    What form (or forms) of nationalism do you believe to be evil enough to justify intolerance?

  3. #133
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Jesus Christ.

    Sounds like a solid argument.
    I sense irony here.

    Nonetheless, if I try to question the validity of her sources and try to get a secular, reason-based discussion going, she just gets madder. At least she is less racist than she is homophobic, or else she would just be frothing at the mouth with hatred all the time.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  4. #134
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    What? You have not said this before. What makes you think this?
    Not in these words, no. But it has been the very topic of this discussion: "I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind", "it appears to tolerate regardless of content", "willingness to accept any feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own", "do you really mean to say that 'irrational prejudice' means something", "if so, you can disregard the rest of the argument and instead try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice", "have you thought about their meaning in your formula, the sort of criterion they constitute and how it affects your ability to objectively determine hypocrisy", "where in your formula do you bar [my examples]"...

    The reason I replied to your original statement to begin with was that you began it saying, "what bothers me is when the Political Correctness Police show up and try to make themselves look good by preaching tolerance, but don't even bother trying to actually tolerate people whose ideas they dislike", in a thread about racism and homophobia in potential friends, basically saying that someone who preaches tolerance but does not tolerate racists and homophobes is a hypocrite. Then followed your formula, which, perhaps foolishly, I took to convey the same notion.

    Now, if racism and homophobia pass as rational prejudices, then, frankly, your criterion of 'irrational prejudice' is utterly impotent. On a more theoretical level, you will find it very difficult to determine which prejudice is irrational and which is not, because rationality is ultimately a subjective standard, which is why I asked you (and, maybe, why you refused) to try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice.

  5. #135
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Not in these words, no. But it has been the very topic of this discussion: "I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind", "it appears to tolerate regardless of content", "willingness to accept any feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own", "do you really mean to say that 'irrational prejudice' means something", "if so, you can disregard the rest of the argument and instead try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice", "have you thought about their meaning in your formula, the sort of criterion they constitute and how it affects your ability to objectively determine hypocrisy", "where in your formula do you bar [my examples]"...

    The reason I replied to your original statement to begin with was that you began it saying, "what bothers me is when the Political Correctness Police show up and try to make themselves look good by preaching tolerance, but don't even bother trying to actually tolerate people whose ideas they dislike", in a thread about racism and homophobia in potential friends, basically saying that someone who preaches tolerance but does not tolerate racists and homophobes is a hypocrite. Then followed your formula, which, perhaps foolishly, I took to convey the same notion.

    Now, if racism and homophobia pass as rational prejudices, then, frankly, your criterion of 'irrational prejudice' is utterly impotent. On a more theoretical level, you will find it very difficult to determine which prejudice is irrational and which is not, because rationality is ultimately a subjective standard, which is why I asked you (and, maybe, why you refused) to try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice.
    When I try to get into an ethical argument...I always end up with everything being subjective and relative.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  6. #136
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    When I try to get into an ethical argument...I always end up with everything being subjective and relative.
    Such is the nature of morality...
    Likes laterlazer liked this post

  7. #137
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    When I try to get into an ethical argument...I always end up with everything being subjective and relative.
    Subjective and relative ethics are the kind of ethics we are having when we are not having any ethics.

    On the other hand, if we ask what have we died for, and what have we encoded, we come up with the ethics of the West, encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And to make it even clearer, we find those who are opposed to the ethics of the West, objectively applied, openly and publicly reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    It is unfortunate that under the influence of the New Age we reject the Western Enlightenment of evidence and reason, freedom and equality, and we reject objective ethics.

    Subjectively we might say the New Age is deeply ugly and the Enlightenment is profoundly beautiful.

  8. #138
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Subjective and relative ethics are the kind of ethics we are having when we are not having any ethics.

    On the other hand, if we ask what have we died for, and what have we encoded, we come up with the ethics of the West, encoded in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    And to make it even clearer, we find those who are opposed to the ethics of the West, objectively applied, openly and publicly reject the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    It is unfortunate that under the influence of the New Age we reject the Western Enlightenment of evidence and reason, freedom and equality, and we reject objective ethics.

    Subjectively we might say the New Age is deeply ugly and the Enlightenment is profoundly beautiful.
    Reason and compassion sing to the heartstrings.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morning Star View Post
    First off, kudos to you for defending your "outcast" friends!

    Second, to answer your question: I might be polite to such people (the racist, conformist homophobes, that is), but I'd otherwise keep my distance from them. I'm all for equality and human rights, and will defend these ideals to the death.
    I defend anybody who is being treated unfairly.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  10. #140
    Suave y Fuerte BadOctopus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Qwan View Post
    I would get a bunch of bible verses and old watchtower quotes thrown at me (she is Jehovah's Witness), and she would tell me how my generation has no morals. She might say something really unreasonable like "if you are fine with faggots, why not go around killing people?"

    She is especially strong with SJ...
    Yikes, @Magic Qwan. I have a few JW relatives, and have spent quite a lot of time with them, as well as their friends, but I've never known any JW to be that volatile about homosexuality. According to what my relatives have told me, they regard the actual practice as a sin, but they don't hate the people who practice it. Basically, the whole "Hate the sin, not the sinner" thing. One of my brothers is gay, and at no time have my JW relatives been cruel or hateful to him. Then again, I guess there are extremists in every religion.

    Anyway, I don't think I could be friends with a racist or a homophobe, because both ways of thinking are illogical. It makes no sense to hate someone based on something they can't control, like skin color, or who they're attracted to. And even if your prejudices are a product of how you were raised, that's still no excuse. It's still irrational, and I can't muster any respect for someone who refuses to think for themselves.

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