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  1. #111
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    You are putting words in my mouth. Again.

    I did not add an 'any' to the definition, nor did I act as if I had. Did you read my post? The last two paragraphs make it quite clear that I did not mean it in the way you allege.


    It is not possible to do so. Again, did you read my post? I dealt specifically with rephrasing X7 in terms of a habit, and specifically rejected rephrasing it in terms of belief.

    It would have helped your argument if you had been able to do this, and I had specifically rejected this as a possibility in my previous post, and you claim it would be "easy", and yet you did not do it.


    Merriam-Webster again: nationalist: a member of a political group that wants to form a separate and independent nation

    And you don't tolerate these people. Those horrible, horrible people, who .... want a country of their own.

    Regarding 'racists', what do you mean by that? Would you include "Just a good 'ol boy from the south and prolly only knew what his pappy taught 'im.", or would you only include people who actually harm others? Would you fail to tolerate them as a human being, or would you only fail to tolerate their behavior?


    Then he said well.
    Hi, there, newcomer!
    Personally, I found X1-X4 reasonable, X5 and X6 no worse than "thought crimes" if kept private, and the remaining 2 deplorable because they hurt people.
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    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

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  2. #112
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    You are putting words in my mouth. Again.
    I am interpreting your words, as indicated by the use of 'appears to' and 'interpreting'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I did not add an 'any' to the definition, nor did I act as if I had. Did you read my post? The last two paragraphs make it quite clear that I did not mean it in the way you allege.
    Holy shit. Do you really mean to say that 'irrational prejudice' means something, is even the key phrase? If so, you can disregard the rest of the argument and instead try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    It is not possible to do so. Again, did you read my post? I dealt specifically with rephrasing X7 in terms of a habit, and specifically rejected rephrasing it in terms of belief.

    It would have helped your argument if you had been able to do this, and I had specifically rejected this as a possibility in my previous post, and you claim it would be "easy", and yet you did not do it.
    It is my sentence. If I say it can be rephrased as a habit or belief and yet retain the idea behind the original sentence, it is so. But these are just examples. It does not matter whether I can rephrase them to fit your formula or not, because I could always come up with others, like 'believes it is always justified to beat an unruly child', 'holds that cats are property and can thus be used as sex toys', 'thinks that gingers need to be shot on sight', 'takes it upon himself to kill the adulterous women in his city because the police refuse to uphold sharia law', 'feels proud to believe and do all this'.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    Merriam-Webster again: nationalist: a member of a political group that wants to form a separate and independent nation

    And you don't tolerate these people. Those horrible, horrible people, who .... want a country of their own.

    Regarding 'racists', what do you mean by that? Would you include "Just a good 'ol boy from the south and prolly only knew what his pappy taught 'im.", or would you only include people who actually harm others? Would you fail to tolerate them as a human being, or would you only fail to tolerate their behavior?
    Do you even lift, bro? Stop focusing on the exchangeable details.

    Quote Originally Posted by riva View Post
    I like thjs thomas guy very much.
    He was a gay man who often fell in love with young boys, who fathered several children - two or so of whom killed themselves - with a woman he used mostly as a manager, who was arrogant and condescending and thought World War I was a good idea. But he did get some things right.

  3. #113
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind. Actually, no; I pity the people around him.

    Here are a few values for X to demonstrate why:

    X1: 'has black skin'
    X2: 'is homosexual'
    X3: 'is of Irish ancestry'
    X4: 'is a Muslim'
    X5: 'thinks women are tools'
    X6: 'hates blacks and gays'
    X7: 'rapes little girls for fun'
    X8: 'flys a plane into the WTC'

    Now a game: At which point did you feel tolerance as you would have it stopped been a virtue?
    We've probably talked about this before, but can you exlain how and why choice fits into your moral calculus and views on culpability?
    Take the weakest thing in you
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  4. #114
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We've probably talked about this before, but can you exlain how and why choice fits into your moral calculus and views on culpability?
    In pretty much the same way it works for most people. What inconsistency do you sense between what I have expressed here and how you think my moral calculus works?

  5. #115
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    In pretty much the same way it works for most people.
    Fair enough.

    What inconsistency do you sense between what I have expressed here and how you think my moral calculus works?
    Not necessarily inconsistent.

    Can you explain why you feel people should be judged differently based on their culpability?


    Also here's an interesting hypothetical for anyone interested:
    What do you do with Typhoid Mary?
    She's a serious threat to society, but it's not her fault.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #116
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Can you explain why you feel people should be judged differently based on their culpability?
    Because the choices we make say something about our character and our world view. Accidents that happen to us, whether by birth or through some other cause, do not.

  7. #117
    The Dark Lord The Wailing Specter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Fair enough.



    Not necessarily inconsistent.

    Can you explain why you feel people should be judged differently based on their culpability?


    Also here's an interesting hypothetical for anyone interested:
    What do you do with Typhoid Mary?
    She's a serious threat to society, but it's not her fault.
    Put her on an island and let her live out her days alone. Only thing you can do.
    Enneagram: 6w7 (phobic) > 2w1 > 9w1
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Holland Code: AIS
    Date of Birth: March 15, 1996
    Gender: Male
    Political Stance: Libertarian Liberal (Arizona School/Strong BHL)
    ATHEIST UNITARIAN UNIVERSALIST HUMANIST
    and
    SCIENCE ENTHUSIAST


    I say this as a reminder to myself, but this goes for everyone:

    You can achieve anything you set your mind to, and you are limited only by how dedicated you are to succeed!

    -Magic Qwan

  8. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Holy shit. Do you really mean to say that 'irrational prejudice' means something, is even the key phrase?


    Wow. Just ... Wow.

    You're telling me that when you read "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against X, it's easy to tolerate X", all you saw was "it's easy to tolerate X"? That when you saw that one sentence and produced a detailed reply to that one sentence, apparently quite irritated because you decided to refer to the rape of little girls, you had not actually bothered to read the whole sentence you were replying to?



    If so, you can disregard the rest of the argument and instead try to explain what constitutes an irrational prejudice.
    I will not be doing that.

    If you are actually confused about what "irrational" or "prejudice" mean, there's this thing called a Dictionary. You can look up words in it, and it will tell you what they mean.

    It is my sentence.
    I see. It's your sentence, so I'm not allowed to interpret your words in a way you didn't mean, like you've been doing to me. It's your sentence, so I'm not allowed to throw away the important half, like you did to my sentence.

    Stop focusing on the exchangeable details.
    If you were referring to the part where I asked about the details of how exactly you would define 'racism', those were not 'exchangeable' details.

    If you were referring to the word 'nationalist', why do you think it's 'exchangeable'? What is it 'exchangeable' for?

  9. #119
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    You're telling me that when you read "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against X, it's easy to tolerate X", all you saw was "it's easy to tolerate X"?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    That when you saw that one sentence and produced a detailed reply to that one sentence, apparently quite irritated because you decided to refer to the rape of little girls, you had not actually bothered to read the whole sentence you were replying to?
    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I will not be doing that.
    Because a closer look would reveal that you would indeed have to add an 'any' to the definition?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    If you are actually confused about what "irrational" or "prejudice" mean, there's this thing called a Dictionary. You can look up words in it, and it will tell you what they mean.
    I know what the words mean. Have you thought about their meaning in your formula, the sort of criterion they constitute and how it affects your ability to objectively determine hypocrisy, the one you ascribe to people from the Political Correctness Police?

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I see. It's your sentence, so I'm not allowed to interpret your words in a way you didn't mean, like you've been doing to me. It's your sentence, so I'm not allowed to throw away the important half, like you did to my sentence.
    Apparently, you do not see. And again you respond to the irrelevant parts. You are welcome to tell me what you meant by your original statement. In fact, it would save us a lot of time if you did. So far, none of your attempts to correct my interpretation seem to contradict it. You say my examples are not what you meant to include, but where in your formula do you bar them? The 'irrational' in 'irrational prejudice', as I said, unable to do the job.

    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    If you were referring to the part where I asked about the details of how exactly you would define 'racism', those were not 'exchangeable' details.

    If you were referring to the word 'nationalist', why do you think it's 'exchangeable'? What is it 'exchangeable' for?
    Do you always miss the point on purpose?

    I wrote a list of things I am intolerant of to show that I can be intolerant of these things and still preach tolerance without hypocrisy. What these things are is of no importance. The principle behind them matters. Therefore, they are exchangeable.

    Did you really want me to point out that there are different forms of nationalism or define my personal notion of racism? What purpose would that serve?

  10. #120
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I preach tolerance but do not tolerate racists, homophobes, nationalists, misogynists, rapists, or jihadists, because all of these people decide to be assholes, and, as Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.
    perhaps you mean ultra-nationalists? nationalism has been a positive thing as much as it has been a negative thing. I'm also sick of the word "jihadist" jihad and terrorism don't necessarily have anything to do with each other, religious extremists have ruined this word when what it is supposed to represent is a perfectly okay concept.

    Now about the rest of them being assholes, I only agree with you on rapists...there is just no excuse. But as for homophobes, misogynists, and racists a lot of times they were raised to think the way they do. I have also known homophobes and racists who treat people of different sexual orientations and racial backgrounds with all the respect they give straight white people. Being a bigot doesn't mean you will act like one to other people unprovoked, it means you hold certain beliefs. For instance I think the "label gmo" movement is dumb, but I won't go up to everyone in the farmers market and yell at them or argue with them, hell, if I like their products enough I will even buy them. Most bigots I know are the same way.


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