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  1. #101
    Male johnnyyukon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    It's more interesting to me what people consider as friends. It seems that for some, a friend is just somebody that you don't hate. For me a friend is somebody that I have a mutually strong positive connection to. And, it likely wouldn't be a racist or a homophobe.
    Agree, I think of a friend like the Germans do, basically someone you know for a long time before they get that label.

    I suppose I'm "friends" with some racists (and really there's a fine line between prejudice and racism, the latter involving more active hate).

    I had a pretty hardcore MMA instructor that was MORE than happy to throw out racial slurs in any given conversation. But he taught me a LOT about fighting, life, took me dirt bike riding and shit, was a good father to his kids, supported his family, so it was just who he was and I'd just laugh it off. He owned the gym and he gladly trained people of all colors so it was like his actions were way louder than his words.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnnyyukon View Post
    Just a good 'ol boy from the south and prolly only knew what his pappy taught 'im.
    This sort of thing doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when the Political Correctness Police show up and try to make themselves look good by preaching tolerance, but don't even bother trying to actually tolerate people whose ideas they dislike. Then they have the gall to try to whitewash their hypocrisy when they get called on it.

    If you don't have an irrational prejudice against X, it's easy to tolerate X, whether X is "people with black skin", or "people with conservative political opinions".

  3. #103
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    This sort of thing doesn't bother me. What bothers me is when the Political Correctness Police show up and try to make themselves look good by preaching tolerance, but don't even bother trying to actually tolerate people whose ideas they dislike. Then they have the gall to try to whitewash their hypocrisy when they get called on it.

    If you don't have an irrational prejudice against X, it's easy to tolerate X, whether X is "people with black skin", or "people with conservative political opinions".
    I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind. Actually, no; I pity the people around him.

    Here are a few values for X to demonstrate why:

    X1: 'has black skin'
    X2: 'is homosexual'
    X3: 'is of Irish ancestry'
    X4: 'is a Muslim'
    X5: 'thinks women are tools'
    X6: 'hates blacks and gays'
    X7: 'rapes little girls for fun'
    X8: 'flys a plane into the WTC'

    Now a game: At which point did you feel tolerance as you would have it stopped been a virtue?
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    Here are a few values for X to demonstrate why:

    X1: 'has black skin'
    X2: 'is homosexual'
    X3: 'is of Irish ancestry'
    X4: 'is a Muslim'
    X5: 'thinks women are tools'
    X6: 'hates blacks and gays'
    X7: 'rapes little girls for fun'
    X8: 'flys a plane into the WTC'

    Now a game: At which point did you feel tolerance as you would have it stopped been a virtue?
    I'm not quite sure how you managed to so completely misunderstand what I said. "Tolerance as I would have it" is not something special I cooked up, it's the ordinary dictionary definition.

    Merriam-Webster: willingness to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own

    I would add to that list characteristics that a person can't control: 'has black skin', 'is transsexual', 'has bad acne', 'is ugly', 'has blond hair', etc.

    Your X1 through X4 fit the definition of tolerance naturally. For example, we could substitute X4 for X and get the true statement: "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against Muslims, it's easy to tolerate Muslims." We could truthfully say that someone who preaches tolerance but doesn't tolerate Muslims is a hypocrite. Preaching tolerance in general implies thinking that Muslims ought to be tolerated.

    Now let's look at X7, "rapes little girls for fun". (As an aside, I am annoyed that you decided it was a good idea to assume that my telling off people who are hypocritical about tolerance meant that I must somehow approve of raping little girls for fun.) Is that a feeling? No. A belief, or a characteristic that can't be controlled? No. You could stretch the definition of habit a lot to try to force it to fit, but then you're trying to tell me that it's a habit that's merely different from my own. So that doesn't fly either, and we must conclude that the definition of tolerance doesn't mean that we have to tolerate rapists of little girls.

    Since X7 doesn't fit the definition of tolerance, trying to substitute it for X in my statement would be twisting my words. If we make the substitution anyway, we get the bizarre sentence: "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against people who rape little girls for fun, it's easy to tolerate people who rape little girls for fun." (Again, it boggles my mind that you thought *this* was what I meant.) Clearly, there are reasons other than "irrational prejudice" to object to "raping little girls for fun".
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  5. #105
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind. Actually, no; I pity the people around him.

    Here are a few values for X to demonstrate why:

    X1: 'has black skin'
    X2: 'is homosexual'
    X3: 'is of Irish ancestry'
    X4: 'is a Muslim'
    X5: 'thinks women are tools'
    X6: 'hates blacks and gays'
    X7: 'rapes little girls for fun'
    X8: 'flys a plane into the WTC'

    Now a game: At which point did you feel tolerance as you would have it stopped been a virtue?
    be fine with x1-x4 as potential friends if they don't suck for other reasons and I don't think I'd need to be tolerant because just that info alone does not give me a reason to hate them.
    x5 and x6 maybe maybe not it depend on how overt they are at it, I wouldn't kill them more than likely just not talk to them. But I could probably tolerate them in small doses

    x7 and x8 fuck no and probably call the cops or find someone with a gun willing to go to prison to shoot them
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so
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  6. #106
    literally your mother PocketFullOf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    I pity the fool whose tolerance is so blind. Actually, no; I pity the people around him.

    Here are a few values for X to demonstrate why:

    X1: 'has black skin'
    X2: 'is homosexual'
    X3: 'is of Irish ancestry'
    X4: 'is a Muslim'
    X5: 'thinks women are tools'
    X6: 'hates blacks and gays'
    X7: 'rapes little girls for fun'
    X8: 'flys a plane into the WTC'

    Now a game: At which point did you feel tolerance as you would have it stopped been a virtue?
    At the point where their actions physically hurt others or their purpose is to inspire others to physically hurt others. Very clear line.


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  7. #107
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ancalagon View Post
    I'm not quite sure how you managed to so completely misunderstand what I said. "Tolerance as I would have it" is not something special I cooked up, it's the ordinary dictionary definition.

    Merriam-Webster: willingness to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own

    I would add to that list characteristics that a person can't control: 'has black skin', 'is transsexual', 'has bad acne', 'is ugly', 'has blond hair', etc.

    Your X1 through X4 fit the definition of tolerance naturally. For example, we could substitute X4 for X and get the true statement: "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against Muslims, it's easy to tolerate Muslims." We could truthfully say that someone who preaches tolerance but doesn't tolerate Muslims is a hypocrite. Preaching tolerance in general implies thinking that Muslims ought to be tolerated.

    Now let's look at X7, "rapes little girls for fun". (As an aside, I am annoyed that you decided it was a good idea to assume that my telling off people who are hypocritical about tolerance meant that I must somehow approve of raping little girls for fun.) Is that a feeling? No. A belief, or a characteristic that can't be controlled? No. You could stretch the definition of habit a lot to try to force it to fit, but then you're trying to tell me that it's a habit that's merely different from my own. So that doesn't fly either, and we must conclude that the definition of tolerance doesn't mean that we have to tolerate rapists of little girls.

    Since X7 doesn't fit the definition of tolerance, trying to substitute it for X in my statement would be twisting my words. If we make the substitution anyway, we get the bizarre sentence: "If you don't have an irrational prejudice against people who rape little girls for fun, it's easy to tolerate people who rape little girls for fun." (Again, it boggles my mind that you thought *this* was what I meant.) Clearly, there are reasons other than "irrational prejudice" to object to "raping little girls for fun".
    O Ti, you so literal.

    The point was to show that tolerance as you would have it appears to tolerate regardless of content, interpreting Mr. Webster's words as saying that tolerance is a 'willingness to accept any feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own' (unless you did not mean to include racism and homophobia in the realm of feelings, habits and beliefs which ought to be tolerated by tolerant people, in which case your posting in this thread would be rather misleading).

    It is easy enough to rephrase X7 and X8 in terms of habits and beliefs, preserving the essentials and complying with your neat formula. But, again, how literal and myopic! The question remains: At which point do you feel tolerance as you would have it stops being a virtue?

    I preach tolerance but do not tolerate racists, homophobes, nationalists, misogynists, rapists, or jihadists, because all of these people decide to be assholes, and, as Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.
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  8. #108
    Senior Member riva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    O Ti, you so literal.

    The point was to show that tolerance as you would have it appears to tolerate regardless of content, interpreting Mr. Webster's words as saying that tolerance is a 'willingness to accept any feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own' (unless you did not mean to include racism and homophobia in the realm of feelings, habits and beliefs which ought to be tolerated by tolerant people, in which case your posting in this thread would be rather misleading).

    It is easy enough to rephrase X7 and X8 in terms of habits and beliefs, preserving the essentials and complying with your neat formula. But, again, how literal and myopic! The question remains: At which point do you feel tolerance as you would have it stops being a virtue?

    I preach tolerance but do not tolerate racists, homophobes, nationalists, misogynists, rapists, or jihadists, because all of these people decide to be assholes, and, as Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.
    I like thjs thomas guy very much.

    As to the title: i think i can as long as: (1) the subect doesn't come up, or the phobia aren't being tried to be sold to me - which basically means i am refusing to acknowledge my friend has these phobias - and (2) he or she doesn't act on these intolerances.

    I could very well be friends with one if under the above circumstances.
    .

  9. #109
    friendly and accessible boomslang's Avatar
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    I could. But then again, I'm no moral crusader.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The point was to show that tolerance as you would have it appears to tolerate regardless of content, interpreting Mr. Webster's words as saying that tolerance is a 'willingness to accept any feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own'
    You are putting words in my mouth. Again.

    I did not add an 'any' to the definition, nor did I act as if I had. Did you read my post? The last two paragraphs make it quite clear that I did not mean it in the way you allege.

    It is easy enough to rephrase X7 and X8 in terms of habits and beliefs, preserving the essentials and complying with your neat formula. But, again, how literal and myopic!
    It is not possible to do so. Again, did you read my post? I dealt specifically with rephrasing X7 in terms of a habit, and specifically rejected rephrasing it in terms of belief.

    It would have helped your argument if you had been able to do this, and I had specifically rejected this as a possibility in my previous post, and you claim it would be "easy", and yet you did not do it.

    I preach tolerance but do not tolerate racists, homophobes, nationalists, misogynists, rapists, or jihadists,
    Merriam-Webster again: nationalist: a member of a political group that wants to form a separate and independent nation

    And you don't tolerate these people. Those horrible, horrible people, who .... want a country of their own.

    Regarding 'racists', what do you mean by that? Would you include "Just a good 'ol boy from the south and prolly only knew what his pappy taught 'im.", or would you only include people who actually harm others? Would you fail to tolerate them as a human being, or would you only fail to tolerate their behavior?

    as Thomas Mann said, tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.
    Then he said well.
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