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Thread: Vegetarianism

  1. #331
    an abyss of Nothingness Arctic Hysteria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mademoiselle View Post

    Health problems like lack of essential nutrients such as:



    Now the logic here, why avoid meat to provide these nutrients?
    These’s too much unnecessary effort.
    Woman. The article you quoted mentions how vegetarians should obtain necessary nutrition, NOT how vegetarianism causes health problems.
    What you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that, the people who choose vegetarianism are concerned about issues apart from simply their own nutrition. Millions of people are vegetarian, and you can't walk to them and say "hey, why make the unnecessary effort?". Why don't you study and understand their instead? So many people have tried to tell you the issues that go hand in hand with excessive meat consumption, and you just refuse try and learn to accept somebody else's choice.

    Better not start bringing up articles about the health problems caused by meat consumption, because it's going to be loooonggg!
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  2. #332
    Senior Member GIjade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    my brother and sister in law are vegetarian. And if I really wanted to I could be a vegetarian, but I don't have any real motivation. So I'm not. I ate a mainly largely vegetarian diet when I lived with them for 6 months, but I did eat meat on occasion. But there's a lot of really good vegetarian dishes. Basically what I say is I don't see any harm in vegetarian. As long as you aren't scowling at meat eaters.
    Maybe Paul McCartney can give you a reason:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCla4k3DhgY
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  3. #333
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic Hysteria View Post
    Woman. The article you quoted mentions how vegetarians should obtain necessary nutrition, NOT how vegetarianism causes health problems.
    What you can't seem to wrap your brain around is that, the people who choose vegetarianism are concerned about issues apart from simply their own nutrition. Millions of people are vegetarian, and you can't walk to them and say "hey, why make the unnecessary effort?". Why don't you study and understand their instead? So many people have tried to tell you the issues that go hand in hand with excessive meat consumption, and you just refuse try and learn to accept somebody else's choice.

    Better not start bringing up articles about the health problems caused by meat consumption, because it's going to be loooonggg!
    Quote Originally Posted by GIjade View Post
    Maybe Paul McCartney can give you a reason:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCla4k3DhgY
    I like vegetarian lifestyles overall.. because they are healthy, and cheap. But.. I think too often vegetarianism gets ranked in as being so much classier towards animals, particularly animals that are fluffy and cute. I won't ever argue that vegetarianism saves animal lives -- it generally drives down demand. But, I don't think it is as classy as people think, and I think there is a degree of idealism attached to it. Much of the same factories and equipment used to harvest vegetables take the lives of wild animals that are... pretty much trashed. They get chewed up in combines and under the wheels of machinery to make those salads and produce available. Also, frequently I see vegetarians treat animals as either alive or untouchable. Even in circumstances of nuisance animals, they don't want to touch the subjects. Even if there's overpopulation of animals that need controlling like deer, fish, and other game, they don't want to touch the subject with a 10 foot pole. I wear recycled rabbit furs and natural-death furs frequently because they're the best things ever, but vegetarians will NOT hug me or touch me, and I often get judge-y comments my way when I wear them.. as if the rabbits that are already dead, bought, and 'trashed' and where I pick them up and use them again are somehow a hate crime against animal kind.

    I can understand people don't want to kill an animal themselves, or whatever.. but I do think there's an idealism factor that, if everyone adopted, would not be practical for both our own lives and for the lives of animals themselves. We need to kill rabbits and deer the same way we need to kill invasive plants. And, ironically, many vegetarians still don't have an issue killing things they deem less cute and feel-y like snakes and spiders and other potentially helpful species. I don't see many people downgrade to "hunting goods only" or wild game and invasive species only and at least make that animal useful somehow by doing what nature does: eating it. The emotional charges just fire up and before you know it, plants are the only way they can stay sane and keep their stomachs from turning. And then, while I'm eating a hamburger, I get people screaming at me about how that cow was murdered as if I'm suppose to feel the same way they feel or else I'm an evil person. The moral vindication is outrageous.

    Overall, I think it has a lot of merit and it does demand better from industries that might not otherwise care.. but I think even when industries improve and make it humane as possible (there are MANY farms that do this now-a-days) they still don't switch back. They're demanding a product they don't purchase be potentially more expensive and nicer to animals and then they don't buy the animals at all. Which, honestly, I don't mind, but I just think vegetarians don't really bridge the gaps between emotionally charged things and logical situations. In situations of animal cruelty charged vegetarianism, they get disgusted, and repulsed, and they just turn away from the whole thing.

    In science we're discovering things like plants emitting pain responses, and danger alerts when they're being hacked at or eaten. Plants are very much alive and responsive to their environments. But, they were meant to be eaten. Everything is.

    And yes, I do firmly believe that nature intended us to be omnivores and that that's what we're meant to be. We can eat both, and it's our individual choices to choose to partake in one or both. But with so many options backed by science.. I don't see many choosing the type of vegetarianism that eats non-nervous-system animals like oysters and mussels, or game-only vegetarians. In fact, I've yet to meet more than 2 in my life that weren't purely emotionally charged with the exception of them being raised vegetarian and just adopting habits from home. It's a very emotional subject.. and I adopt the 'live and let live'.. the only thing that annoys me about vegetarianism is the lack of logic applied to it PLUS the lack of let live. And to be fair, I get it FAR more from vegans than I ever will vegetarians. Let me eat my burger, and I have no problems coming to your house and eating a black bean burger. They are both tasty.
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  4. #334
    Senior Member GIjade's Avatar
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    I became a vegetarian for ethical reasons when I was 18. I'm now 60. When you watch a video such as the one I posted, it makes you think. Well, maybe not you, but some people. There is no idealism really here. It's a matter of sentient beings having to suffer for what we, the all superior beings in the animal world, want. We're only different than them in that our brains are more evolved. Sometimes I wonder if that's an unfortunate thing.
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  5. #335
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIjade View Post
    I became a vegetarian for ethical reasons when I was 18. I'm now 60. When you watch a video such as the one I posted, it makes you think. Well, maybe not you, but some people. There is no idealism really here. It's a matter of sentient beings having to suffer for what we, the all superior beings in the animal world, want. We're only different than them in that our brains are more evolved. Sometimes I wonder if that's an unfortunate thing.
    Yup. And even the bolded is debatable, imho as an animal behaviourist. It's judged by our standards and parameters, after all. Of course we come out on top.
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  6. #336
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIjade View Post
    I became a vegetarian for ethical reasons when I was 18. I'm now 60. When you watch a video such as the one I posted, it makes you think. Well, maybe not you, but some people. There is no idealism really here. It's a matter of sentient beings having to suffer for what we, the all superior beings in the animal world, want. We're only different than them in that our brains are more evolved. Sometimes I wonder if that's an unfortunate thing.
    I mean, it sure does make me think--but it makes me think more along the lines of hey, there are far more ethical ways we can treat animals. Just because we're eating them or using their resources for food doesn't mean we have to act like savages. I'm suuuper excited about things like... getting meat from people who went hunting during the season, and bee hives that don't stress out honey bees to harvest the honey... farms that have strict standards on living conditions and such.. being able to buy eggs from a farm where the ducks and chickens are not losing their feathers from ugly conditions. That sort of thing. But... No, that video doesn't make me think I'm a savage for eating animals. It more makes me think the featured people are savages. I just don't think it's a savage thing to do what's natural to us.

    And it's a personal subjective thing. The cool part about being evolved is.. we can adjust our diet. We can research and realize, hey, we can be vegetarians and not be deficient in what we need if we combine x and y together. You're totally capable of feeding emotions and switching to being a life-long vegetarian, and there is literally nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying my ideas are any better or worse than some. (I do not feel that way with veganism, paleo, and raw foodies and other extreme things like that, I think there's a lot of strictness that has no logical sense what-so-ever there, but that's a different topic for another day.)

    Like I said, I like vegetarians just fine as long as they aren't the type that lecture me as if they're so enlightened and I'm just a little sheeple incapable of breaking free from conformity or .. something equally as morally indignant. If they're chill, I'm chill, and I've always been accommodating the vegetarian people in my life. because.. I'm an omnivore. I eat both.. so I really don't have an issue eating the foods they eat. It's part of my diet.
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  7. #337
    Senior Member GIjade's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I mean, it sure does make me think--but it makes me think more along the lines of hey, there are far more ethical ways we can treat animals.
    Slaughterhouse practices and "far more ethical ways to treat animals" are not mutually exclusive.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Just because we're eating them or using their resources for food doesn't mean we have to act like savages. I'm suuuper excited about things like... getting meat from people who went hunting during the season, and bee hives that don't stress out honey bees to harvest the honey... farms that have strict standards on living conditions and such.. being able to buy eggs from a farm where the ducks and chickens are not losing their feathers from ugly conditions. That sort of thing.
    I agree, if one wants to continue to consume meat and dairy products, this is certainly the way to go. At least you have an awareness of better ways to treat animals which will be used for food.
    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But... No, that video doesn't make me think I'm a savage for eating animals. It more makes me think the featured people are savages. I just don't think it's a savage thing to do what's natural to us.
    Very savage. But by purchasing and consuming that meat, you (not you personally) are participating and condoning that sort of treatment.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And it's a personal subjective thing. The cool part about being evolved is.. we can adjust our diet. We can research and realize, hey, we can be vegetarians and not be deficient in what we need if we combine x and y together. You're totally capable of feeding emotions and switching to being a life-long vegetarian, and there is literally nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying my ideas are any better or worse than some.
    Well said, IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    (I do not feel that way with veganism, paleo, and raw foodies and other extreme things like that, I think there's a lot of strictness that has no logical sense what-so-ever there, but that's a different topic for another day.)
    My sister-in-law really enlightened me about veganism, paleo, etc. She told me to read the book "The China Study". Being vegan is less about animal treatment (although it's part of it) but it's more about being healthy. It actually makes a LOT of sense to go vegan, healthwise, though I admit, for me it's difficult to stop consuming milk products. Those kinds of diets are for people who are truly interested in their long-term health and well being.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Like I said, I like vegetarians just fine as long as they aren't the type that lecture me as if they're so enlightened and I'm just a little sheeple incapable of breaking free from conformity or .. something equally as morally indignant. If they're chill, I'm chill, and I've always been accommodating the vegetarian people in my life. because.. I'm an omnivore. I eat both.. so I really don't have an issue eating the foods they eat. It's part of my diet.
    Yeah, to each his own.
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  8. #338
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIjade View Post
    Slaughterhouse practices and "far more ethical ways to treat animals" are not mutually exclusive.

    I agree, if one wants to continue to consume meat and dairy products, this is certainly the way to go. At least you have an awareness of better ways to treat animals which will be used for food.

    Very savage. But by purchasing and consuming that meat, you (not you personally) are participating and condoning that sort of treatment.


    Well said, IMO.


    My sister-in-law really enlightened me about veganism, paleo, etc. She told me to read the book "The China Study". Being vegan is less about animal treatment (although it's part of it) but it's more about being healthy. It actually makes a LOT of sense to go vegan, healthwise, though I admit, for me it's difficult to stop consuming milk products. Those kinds of diets are for people who are truly interested in their long-term health and well being.


    Yeah, to each his own.
    The china study is full of illogical leaps and blatant lies at times. The China Study | Raw Food SOS Many of the studies vegans quote for health are either not re-produced in humans, or are based on things like this. It really is a purely emotional cling. Just like people thinking honey is more healthy than other types of sugar, or the fad for a while that fruit was unhealthy. It's all perspective and emotions, not really backed by science. I feel a loooot stronger about vegans than I do vegetarians because it starts to get in the realm of scientific nonsense and there's people touting a lot of classist-style behavior while ignoring what science is saying now.. opting for convenience in their own personal beliefs and only really liking studies that cater to their preconceptions. Vegetarians have plenty of ground to stand on to me.. vegans? not so much.
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  9. #339
    Senior Member GIjade's Avatar
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  10. #340
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Starting from SAD (standard American or Australian diet), eating a lot more fruit and vegetable is good for our well being.

    But I found eating a lot more fruit and vegetables is difficult to do until I bought an expensive, top of the line, blender. It works.
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