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Thread: Vegetarianism

  1. #301
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    Well, it sounds like you've given it thought and are doing your part and I have complete respect for that. I also think gradually scaling back towards more ethical eating is probably the best way to go about it for most people ... going cold turkey, when you have no idea where to start, especially when cheap, easy alternatives are staring you in the face is practically doomed to failure.
    I'm glad you mentioned gradually scaling back. As any person who takes this seriously would note that I'm not eating pastured meat and eggs which is really the ideal. I'm hoping to get there.


    Look, I'm no evangelical vegetarian nor do I believe in policing other people's dietary choices. But a little self- and cultural awareness is by no means a bad thing. I do think most Americans are emotionally attached to the idea of eating meat and make lazy excuses and rationalizations for cruelty and environmental degradation because they're so completely in thrall of the fear of deprivation.
    Good points. There's also food deserts and pure lack of knowledge among some groups of people so it's not entirely on each and every person. This is a bizarre shift from the past since for most of human history if poor people knew anything it was how to produce and prepare food.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it
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  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I am unimpressed by ethical arguments that claim it is wrong to eat animals, barring some dire survival situation. Whether we eat animals or plants, life feeds on life. That is the nature of, well, nature. As someone (you?) has already mentioned, the only recourse is to understand the value of what we eat and not be wasteful. The ethical argument against factory farms is another matter since it involves lifelong cruelty to livestock. Using only humane farming methods would indeed make meat more costly, with the logical result that people eat less of it but not necessarily none of it. It would be saved for special occasions, as it has been in many places for generations.

    The better arguments for reducing meat consumption are more objective, regarding human health, the health of the global environment (which doesn't respect human political boundaries), and the ability to feed the world population, even if we manage to curb the rate of its expansion. Again, though, these concerns don't require a vegan diet nor even a vegetarian one, just much less meat consumption than we have now. It is all this talk of absolutes that is muddying the waters and generating conflict where I suspect there really is substantial agreement. Anyone embracing a diet that is absolutely one way or the other is doing so for subjective personal reasons beyond anything discussed here. That is their right, but claiming some universal and objective good through doing so is not supportable.
    With the number of humans we have on earth, in order to feed everyone, yes some people are gonna have to be vegetarian, just like some should really stop reproducing. Fiat currency has made people delusional about the natural limits of resources, science can fix a lot, but humans aren't gods, and science doesn't always provide "miracles"...sometimes the answer is as simple as water is wet, rocks are hard, eat less and stop having so many freaking kids, or thinking that every person on earth can and should live like some greedy king. It's just not realistic, but yes I respect what you are saying, at least.
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  3. #303
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    Yeah, nice work trying to make me look like the brainwashed people hating PETA nutjob.
    Sorry you see it that way.

    Now what do you have to say about immigrant livestock farming labor and the presumably impeccably fair wages they receive?
    I would like to see some footage. Seriously.
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  4. #304
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    Sorry you see it that way.
    Oh yeah, passive aggressively weasel out of it now using so called rationality as a guise.


    I would like to see some footage. Seriously.[/QUOTE]

    Actually, while I have articles on the subject (Google will reveal so much!), the burden of proof is on you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    Sorry you see it that way.



    I would like to see some footage. Seriously.
    Then watch Food Inc, watch the Inside Secret America: Animal Undercover episode, you can get them both on Google Play for about five dollars, you good capitalist you. Both show actual footage and won't require you to do things, like oh say, research or read.

    I just wonder if any vegetarian persons ever actually antagonize you, or the real truth is that you think you are morally superior to vegetarian people, and refuse to do the research because of your own confirmation bias. Projection.

    People who make up such a relatively small amount of the world's population shouldn't make you feel this threatened, it reminds me of that politician in Texas who thinks meat free Mondays are a conspiracy against beef.
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  6. #306
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    I'm just wondering if you have bothered to research anything that I am saying, because your arguments don't really refute anything I am saying. ...you don't even know that cattle are artificially inseminated, grown at an accelerated rate, and all that? Seriously? Cows would die out completely without us, and I'm not suggesting we stop farming cattle entirely, but that there are far too many, and the demand for beef and other meats, as well as milk have been intentionally conflated. Real capitalism doesn't involve monopoly by Monsanto, weird food campaigns from the government, and farmers being sued for wanting to save seeds or go organic. There are plenty of farmers who want to do humane farming, who do humane farming, and farmers and agricultural workers deeply hurt by the current system.

    Yes the numbers of beasts raised now for meat have very little to do with the population, and everything to do with excessive consumption of meat by a small percentage of the world's wealthiest population. A billion people are starving right now, we are actually running out of food, and farmers can tell you this themselves. I took a course where I learned about agriculture, farming fish, and impact of agriculture on deforestation and pollution. However, if you actually were not afraid to learn something, you could find information on the internet about it, real information that in no way has anything to do with PETA or "confirmation bias."

    Yes, if farmers raise grass fed beef instead of factory farms, people are going to have to learn to consume sane amounts of meat, but many have been conditioned to demand an unsustainable excess at low prices.
    I have heard of artificially inseminated but never heard it called forced bred.

    So you would buy and eat ethically raised meat?
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  7. #307
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Vegetarian diet is in no way inherently linked to anxiety, it's like saying people in India are inherently more anxious than other people, and people who follow other sorts of diets can have anxiety, you could binge on meat in a fit of anxiety via emotional eating.
    It seems to me that many religious rituals allay but do not cure anxiety. And it seems to me that vegetarianism is a religious ritual. And as we live in an Age of Anxiety, vegetarianism is seized upon as a socially acceptable religious ritual.

    And we only have to read this thread to see that vegetarianism is defended with religious zeal.

    Any criticism of vegetarianism is experienced as an increase in anxiety, and so naturally must be resisted.
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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    I have heard of artificially inseminated but never heard of it called forced bred.

    So you would buy and eat ethically raised meat?

    Artificially inseminated is forced breeding if the individual is not human and cannot elect the process, it puts the responsibility for the excess of cattle on human exploitation rather than randy cows and bulls gone wild.

    At this point in my life, I would not, no, but I would consider raising my own goats for cheese and chickens for eggs, or acquire them from a local farmer. However right now I am vegan and happy with my choice. I do prefer others buy ethically raised beef over factory beef.

    But my purchases are actually none of your business, if you say yours are none of mine. Some meat eaters have a creepy double standard, like they want to push pork beef and milk through commercials but angle for "veggie laws" to attempt to silence people who expose the truth. This mostly goes on in factory farm settings, but I have noticed some random meat eaters act as though being vegetarian and criticizing an industry (fully my right as an American, the consumer rather than the sellers and government should determine these things with free information, if they have nothing to hide) is some kind of sacrilege. I have noticed this, it's not like you actually run into many vegetarian people in small towns, and you probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightening than actually being personally assaulted by a PETA member, but yet the weird attitude of surpression prevails for some. That's like. ...attempting to hijack the culture. Why must the concessions about how "ok" YOUR choice is be the burden on the vegetarian.

    Would you drink almond or hemp milk?

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    It seems to me that many religious rituals allay but do not cure anxiety. And it seems to me that vegetarianism is a religious ritual. And as we live in an Age of Anxiety, vegetarianism is seized upon as a socially acceptable religious ritual.

    And we only have to read this thread to see that vegetarianism is defended with religious zeal.

    Any criticism of vegetarianism is experienced as an increase in anxiety, and so naturally must be resisted.
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  10. #310
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Artificially inseminated is forced breeding if the individual is not human and cannot elect the process, it puts the responsibility for the excess of cattle on human exploitation rather than randy cows and bulls gone wild.

    At this point in my life, I would not, no, but I would consider raising my own goats for cheese and chickens for eggs, or acquire them from a local farmer. However right now I am vegan and happy with my choice. I do prefer others buy ethically raised beef over factory beef.

    But my purchases are actually none of your business, if you say yours are none of mine. Some meat eaters have a creepy double standard, like they want to push pork beef and milk through commercials but angle for "veggie laws" to attempt to silence people who expose the truth. This mostly goes on in factory farm settings, but I have noticed some random meat eaters act as though being vegetarian and criticizing an industry (fully my right as an American, the consumer rather than the sellers and government should determine these things with free information, if they have nothing to hide) is some kind of sacrilege. I have noticed this, it's not like you actually run into many vegetarian people in small towns, and you probably have a better chance of getting hit by lightening than actually being personally assaulted by a PETA member, but yet the weird attitude of surpression prevails for some. That's like. ...attempting to hijack the culture. Why must the concessions about how "ok" YOUR choice is be the burden on the vegetarian.

    Would you drink almond or hemp milk?
    I wish I could afford ethically raised beef. Nor can I afford organic veggies and fruits. But I need to eat and feed my family which includes a variety of foods but no wheat (due to personal health reasons). I do drink almond milk but not as a staple due to the cost.

    This has been a interesting thread, everyone has an opinion and this is a good place to voice it.
    4w5

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