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Thread: Vegetarianism

  1. #291
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    @countrygirl, I think you're missing the point.

    Of course most farming practices will be geared to maximize profit.

    The thing is, not all instances of maximizing profit are equally harmful to the environment. Rearing livestock on a large scale IS more environmentally taxing in most cases than plant-based agriculture, not to mention incredibly cruel to sentient animals.

    Are there more responsible ways of going about meat production? Absolutely ... but they form a very very small proportion of the meat that people consume. Vegetarianism, in this instance, is a more responsible choice. And so is consuming more ethical meat ... but that's probably more expensive ... and since we seem so hung up on practicality as a virtue ... it could be argued that it's actually less practical than a vegetarian diet.
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  2. #292
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    @countrygirl, I think you're missing the point.

    Of course most farming practices will be geared to maximize profit.

    The thing is, not all instances of maximizing profit are equally harmful to the environment. Rearing livestock on a large scale IS more environmentally taxing in most cases than plant-based agriculture, not to mention incredibly cruel to sentient animals.

    Are there more responsible ways of going about meat production? Absolutely ... but they form a very very small proportion of the meat that people consume. Vegetarianism, in this instance, is a more responsible choice. And so is consuming more ethical meat ... but that's probably more expensive ... and since we seem so hung up on practicality as a virtue ... it could be argued that it's actually less practical than a vegetarian diet.
    Most people who aren't rolling in it just cut back on meat consumption. I myself only spent five bucks on organic chicken this week while also relying on mushrooms, tofu, and cagefree eggs.
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  3. #293
    Senior Member countrygirl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    @countrygirl, I think you're missing the point.

    Of course most farming practices will be geared to maximize profit.

    The thing is, not all instances of maximizing profit are equally harmful to the environment. Rearing livestock on a large scale IS more environmentally taxing in most cases than plant-based agriculture, not to mention incredibly cruel to sentient animals.

    Are there more responsible ways of going about meat production? Absolutely ... but they form a very very small proportion of the meat that people consume. Vegetarianism, in this instance, is a more responsible choice. And so is consuming more ethical meat ... but that's probably more expensive ... and since we seem so hung up on practicality as a virtue ... it could be argued that it's actually less practical than a vegetarian diet.
    No I'm not missing the point. That is exactly my point. Money. Do not dress up vegetarianism as more moral, ethical or environmentally better than raising meat. Because it is about money and feeding the masses with cheap food.

    And if you choose to vote with your wallet that does not make you more moral, ethical or environmentally better. You are just justifying your purchase.

    Do you think that these mass farms that produce your vegetable and fruits are ethical? Do you truly think employing illegal immigrant who has no rights under the law are treated ethically and morally? Do you think they get paid at least minimum wage? And what of their living conditions?

    You care so much for your poor animals (which is not unjustified) but do not speak out against the cruelty against humans. unbelievable.
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  4. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    I've never even thought about what would happen to all the animal if we didn't eat them. However, I reason they would be slaughtered since they will not make the farmer money. It cost money to raise animals for food.



    This is true and not only that, we are selecting what will grow at the expense of the ecosystem ie irrigation in California, herbicides and pesticides. In fact, Europe has made a link to a pesticides (used for corn) that is killing our bees (colony collapse) Bees pollinate 70% of our food crops. If they go extinct....I can only imagine what will happen. We also can hunt wildlife out of season if they eat these crops.



    I'm not sure by what you mean that cattle are being "forced bred"?



    I disagree with your statement that humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem through raising more animals for meat. That sounds like a over population problem.



    So you don't like capitalism when it comes to raising animals for meat. You said it yourself, meat is expensive. Farmers are in business to make money.



    Sounds like confirmation bias to me.



    You are projecting your bias on me.



    LOL. Sorry, wrong again. I'm not convinced of your arguments that a vegetarian diet is ethical and environmental when the bottom line of ANY farmer is money.

    Have you ever heard of grass fed beef and grass management? These are some of the ethical farming practices to raising beef. But like you said, meat is expensive.
    I'm just wondering if you have bothered to research anything that I am saying, because your arguments don't really refute anything I am saying. ...you don't even know that cattle are artificially inseminated, grown at an accelerated rate, and all that? Seriously? Cows would die out completely without us, and I'm not suggesting we stop farming cattle entirely, but that there are far too many, and the demand for beef and other meats, as well as milk have been intentionally conflated. Real capitalism doesn't involve monopoly by Monsanto, weird food campaigns from the government, and farmers being sued for wanting to save seeds or go organic. There are plenty of farmers who want to do humane farming, who do humane farming, and farmers and agricultural workers deeply hurt by the current system.

    Yes the numbers of beasts raised now for meat have very little to do with the population, and everything to do with excessive consumption of meat by a small percentage of the world's wealthiest population. A billion people are starving right now, we are actually running out of food, and farmers can tell you this themselves. I took a course where I learned about agriculture, farming fish, and impact of agriculture on deforestation and pollution. However, if you actually were not afraid to learn something, you could find information on the internet about it, real information that in no way has anything to do with PETA or "confirmation bias."

    Yes, if farmers raise grass fed beef instead of factory farms, people are going to have to learn to consume sane amounts of meat, but many have been conditioned to demand an unsustainable excess at low prices.

  5. #295
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Most people who aren't rolling in it just cut back on meat consumption. I myself only spent five bucks on organic chicken this week while also relying on mushrooms, tofu, and cagefree eggs.
    Well, it sounds like you've given it thought and are doing your part and I have complete respect for that. I also think gradually scaling back towards more ethical eating is probably the best way to go about it for most people ... going cold turkey, when you have no idea where to start, especially when cheap, easy alternatives are staring you in the face is practically doomed to failure.

    Look, I'm no evangelical vegetarian nor do I believe in policing other people's dietary choices. But a little self- and cultural awareness is by no means a bad thing. I do think most Americans are emotionally attached to the idea of eating meat and make lazy excuses and rationalizations for cruelty and environmental degradation because they're so completely in thrall of the fear of deprivation.

  6. #296
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Why do you say that, I genuinely want to know, but as a starter, please don't use the "but what would happen to the animals if we didn't eat them" argument, because we have driven out wildlife with excessive agriculture, especially cattle farming is the worst in terms of both land and pollution, and cattle are only so numerous because they are force bred. In nature, animals will balance themselves to their ecosystem. We once lived in this manner ourselves, we took up reasonable amounts of space and killed what we needed, but humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem, and that's partially through raising more animal for meat, beginning in the 20th century...and just to add to that, it's mostly been to the purpose of gluttony for the few, not the needs of the many.
    I am unimpressed by ethical arguments that claim it is wrong to eat animals, barring some dire survival situation. Whether we eat animals or plants, life feeds on life. That is the nature of, well, nature. As someone (you?) has already mentioned, the only recourse is to understand the value of what we eat and not be wasteful. The ethical argument against factory farms is another matter since it involves lifelong cruelty to livestock. Using only humane farming methods would indeed make meat more costly, with the logical result that people eat less of it but not necessarily none of it. It would be saved for special occasions, as it has been in many places for generations.

    The better arguments for reducing meat consumption are more objective, regarding human health, the health of the global environment (which doesn't respect human political boundaries), and the ability to feed the world population, even if we manage to curb the rate of its expansion. Again, though, these concerns don't require a vegan diet nor even a vegetarian one, just much less meat consumption than we have now. It is all this talk of absolutes that is muddying the waters and generating conflict where I suspect there really is substantial agreement. Anyone embracing a diet that is absolutely one way or the other is doing so for subjective personal reasons beyond anything discussed here. That is their right, but claiming some universal and objective good through doing so is not supportable.
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  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Since you've watched Food Inc. you should be aware there's a better way of raising livestock.

    That Documentary shows Joel Salatin produces about 90,000 lbs of beef, pork, and poultry on his 100 acres. If americans cut their meat consumption back to 1950's levels (which is probably a good idea) we could support the meat consumption of America on 2.5% of the land in the lower 48. Moreover, Salatin's methods of rotating livestock around pasture only improves the soil so production rates will only go up from there.
    Yeah that sentiment is included in my wall of text there, my point about eating less meat or not at all, we are not in disagreement on that. But you see, if things continue as they are, I honestly wonder if those who have willingly adapted to veganism or vegetarian diets will fare better when the shit hits the fan. I hope it doesn't, but yes, I am all for people eating moderate amounts of sustainable meat if they won't go veg, I've mentioned this more than once.
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  8. #298
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    No I'm not missing the point. That is exactly my point. Money. Do not dress up vegetarianism as more moral, ethical or environmentally better than raising meat. Because it is about money and feeding the masses with cheap food.

    And if you choose to vote with your wallet that does not make you more moral, ethical or environmentally better. You are just justifying your purchase.

    Do you think that these mass farms that produce your vegetable and fruits are ethical? Do you truly think employing illegal immigrant who has no rights under the law are treated ethically and morally? Do you think they get paid at least minimum wage? And what of their living conditions?

    You care so much for your poor animals (which is not unjustified) but do not speak out against the cruelty against humans. unbelievable.
    Yeah, nice work trying to make me look like the brainwashed people hating PETA nutjob.

    Now what do you have to say about immigrant livestock farming labor and the presumably impeccably fair wages they receive?

  9. #299
    Senior Member senza tema's Avatar
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    The people vs animals line of thinking is so incredibly offensive in its blatant demagoguery. Because OF COURSE it is impossible to care about both.
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  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    I think he is saying the opposite of that.

    Yes I can see how it could be interpreted that way, that vegetarianism allays anxiety, but he makes it sound like an anxious compulsion solved only by eating more vegetables, when a similar anxious compulsive behavior could just as easily be applied to "comfort foods" or binge eating. It's like he's saying all vegetarians do it for religious reasons (no not necessarily, some people really do it for health) or that they must have eating disorders, and I find that to be incorrect, as yes there are vegans who are anorexic in disguise, but there are also people on Atkins or paleo or anything else with eating disorders, it's not specific to vegetarian diets. I may have misunderstood, but sometimes I get Victor and other times I really don't.

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