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Thread: Vegetarianism

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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Turns Out, Your Vegetarianism Probably Is Just A Phase





    which brings me to:
    One of the good things, as vegetarian diets grow in the U.S. and other Western countries (except for maybe France) is that vegetarianism and even veganism is no longer necessarily only the territory of extremists, so flexitarians, semi vegetarians, and practically vegans or weekend vegans, as well as omnis who do meat free Mondays, are better tolerated and often outright embraced as a sign of progress. This means you can "fail" or eat meat, and people will be supportive more of you starting over, or learning vegetarian or vegan diets as a long term slow process. It's not like being an alcoholic where you say, I haven't had a drink in seven years, I don't think people should freak out over an occasional meat or dairy "violation" unless they're purists, there are people for whom it's a very extreme religion, but they should not be the face of vegetarians as a whole, it doesn't really do anyone any good to be so extreme. ..it's like learning another culture, and I think it's easier for some people than others, depending on personality, body type (recent ancestors), motive, background, and access to resources. ..as well as people who see going without meat as "suffering" that will almost never work out permanently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    One of the good things, as vegetarian diets grow in the U.S. and other Western countries (except for maybe France) is that vegetarianism and even veganism is no longer necessarily only the territory of extremists, so flexitarians, semi vegetarians, and practically vegans or weekend vegans, as well as omnis who do meat free Mondays, are better tolerated and often outright embraced as a sign of progress. This means you can "fail" or eat meat, and people will be supportive more of you starting over, or learning vegetarian or vegan diets as a long term slow process. It's not like being an alcoholic where you say, I haven't had a drink in seven years, I don't think people should freak out over an occasional meat or dairy "violation" unless they're purists, there are people for whom it's a very extreme religion, but they should not be the face of vegetarians as a whole, it doesn't really do anyone any good to be so extreme. ..it's like learning another culture, and I think it's easier for some people than others, depending on personality, body type (recent ancestors), motive, background, and access to resources. ..as well as people who see going without meat as "suffering" that will almost never work out permanently.
    So true. I'm a flexitarian myself, in the sense that if I feel like eating a piece of chicken or having "real" sushi, I will do it without beating myself up about it.

    In practice, I haven't eaten meat in years. I accidentally bit into a shrimp siu mai the other day ... objectively speaking, it was flavorful and good but that didn't stop the visceral "omg what the hell am I eating, gross gross gross" reaction. The longer I go without eating meat, the more unappealing I find it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcana View Post
    So true. I'm a flexitarian myself, in the sense that if I feel like eating a piece of chicken or having "real" sushi, I will do it without beating myself up about it.

    In practice, I haven't eaten meat in years. I accidentally bit into a shrimp siu mai the other day ... objectively speaking, it was flavorful and good but that didn't stop the visceral "omg what the hell am I eating, gross gross gross" reaction. The longer I go without eating meat, the more unappealing I find it.
    The labels mean different things to different people. Apparently Bill Clinton continued to refer to himself as vegan, despite allowing himself the occasional egg or fish, because his diet was primarily vegan (I don't know if it is now or not, but apparently it helped him with his heart problems and weight).

    And you call yourself a flexitarian because of your open minded pragmatic view, though you haven't willingly eaten meat in years.

    Personally I would rather strive for veganism and err on the side of lacto ovo than the other way around, and my reasons for this is primarily to break dependence on dairy, because I'm quite sure the health benefits of being a vegetarian pretty much go out the window if one gorged on cream, butter and cheese to make up for protein, instead of more sensibly getting most of it from beans, pulses, nuts, soy, etc.

    I am just happy when people eat less meat, and try to find humanely farmed meat, I can't make other people want to be vegetarian, no matter what I say about the environment, animal cruelty, or health...the only thing that probably annoys me are people who are violently opposed to vegetarian diets for irrational reasons (like one person in this thread) and people who use "paleo" as an excuse to be meat gluttons, when ironically the only reason they can eat so much meat is agricultural civilization, cave men definitely did not have constant access to fresh meat, and they died around forty anyway, and most modern people are shooting for about twice that number.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Desperate workers on a Mexican mega-farm: 'They treated us like slaves'
    Los Angeles Times‎ - 1 day ago


    Food is just expensive.
    The cost is going to come out somewhere whether it's economic, ethical, environmental, or just inconvenience.
    I agree. However the argument that a vegetarian diet is more ethical and environmental than raising meat is flawed.
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    Default Anxiety, Vegetarianism, and Addiction

    Vegetarianism is a religious belief. It is the belief that a God mandates what we eat. So some food is religiously clean and some unclean. And the belief goes that if we eat clean food, we become clean, and if we eat unclean food we become unclean.

    Of course this religious belief is rationalised into a slimming diet or a healthy diet or a cancer free diet, or a healthy heart diet, or God help us, into what is trendy and cool and what makes money.

    Vegetarianism allays anxiety. Vegetarianism doesn't cure anxiety, so no matter how many vegetables we eat, anxiety always returns, and can only be allayed by eating more vegetables. So vegetarianism is addictive.

    So vegetarianism is a religious superstition that is addictive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by countrygirl View Post
    I agree. However the argument that a vegetarian diet is more ethical and environmental than raising meat is flawed.
    Why do you say that, I genuinely want to know, but as a starter, please don't use the "but what would happen to the animals if we didn't eat them" argument, because we have driven out wildlife with excessive agriculture, especially cattle farming is the worst in terms of both land and pollution, and cattle are only so numerous because they are force bred. In nature, animals will balance themselves to their ecosystem. We once lived in this manner ourselves, we took up reasonable amounts of space and killed what we needed, but humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem, and that's partially through raising more animal for meat, beginning in the 20th century...and just to add to that, it's mostly been to the purpose of gluttony for the few, not the needs of the many. I have lots of statistics I can provide you with, there's scientific evidence to back environmental vegetarianism, even if you think animals are dim beasts who deserve to be eaten and don't like the ethical argument ( oh but watch Food Inc, as well, so you understand the ethical argument is about people, not just animals, it's widely available online, you could watch it today).

    Then you can say, well, that's just factory farms. ...but see, the reason Americans especially (though not only us) can consume enough meat to make us fat and sick, is because of factory farms. Humane farming means eating a more reasonable amount of meat, or not at all. It's absurd that people from every class eat more meat than likely some aristocratic people did. It's culture, it's status, and it has to be scaled back, or its going to destroy people, as a species, it's not about saving the earth, the earth has been here a long time. ..but people could very well go the way of the dinosaurs and thoughtlessly take a shocking number of species with them. A hundred years ago, people ate about a third of the quantity of meat, it is not just because there are more people, there's actually greed and gluttony at play here, which is definitely an ethical argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mole View Post
    Vegetarianism is a religious belief. It is the belief that a God mandates what we eat. So some food is religiously clean and some unclean. And the belief goes that if we eat clean food, we become clean, and if we eat unclean food we become unclean.

    Of course this religious belief is rationalised into a slimming diet or a healthy diet or a cancer free diet, or a healthy heart diet, or God help us, into what is trendy and cool and what makes money.

    Vegetarianism allays anxiety. Vegetarianism doesn't cure anxiety, so no matter how many vegetables we eat, anxiety always returns, and can only be allayed by eating more vegetables. So vegetarianism is addictive.

    So vegetarianism is a religious superstition that is addictive.
    Vegetarian diet is in no way inherently linked to anxiety, it's like saying people in India are inherently more anxious than other people, and people who follow other sorts of diets can have anxiety, you could binge on meat in a fit of anxiety via emotional eating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Vegetarian diet is in no way inherently linked to anxiety, it's like saying people in India are inherently more anxious than other people, and people who follow other sorts of diets can have anxiety, you could binge on meat in a fit of anxiety via emotional eating.
    I think he is saying the opposite of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Why do you say that, I genuinely want to know, but as a starter, please don't use the "but what would happen to the animals if we didn't eat them" argument,
    I've never even thought about what would happen to all the animal if we didn't eat them. However, I reason they would be slaughtered since they will not make the farmer money. It cost money to raise animals for food.

    because we have driven out wildlife with excessive agriculture,
    This is true and not only that, we are selecting what will grow at the expense of the ecosystem ie irrigation in California, herbicides and pesticides. In fact, Europe has made a link to a pesticides (used for corn) that is killing our bees (colony collapse) Bees pollinate 70% of our food crops. If they go extinct....I can only imagine what will happen. We also can hunt wildlife out of season if they eat these crops.

    especially cattle farming is the worst in terms of both land and pollution, and cattle are only so numerous because they are force bred.
    I'm not sure by what you mean that cattle are being "forced bred"?

    In nature, animals will balance themselves to their ecosystem. We once lived in this manner ourselves, we took up reasonable amounts of space and killed what we needed, but humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem, and that's partially through raising more animal for meat,
    I disagree with your statement that humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem through raising more animals for meat. That sounds like a over population problem.

    beginning in the 20th century...and just to add to that, it's mostly been to the purpose of gluttony for the few, not the needs of the many.
    So you don't like capitalism when it comes to raising animals for meat. You said it yourself, meat is expensive. Farmers are in business to make money.

    I have lots of statistics I can provide you with, there's scientific evidence to back environmental vegetarianism,
    Sounds like confirmation bias to me.

    even if you think animals are dim beasts who deserve to be eaten
    You are projecting your bias on me.

    and don't like the ethical argument ( oh but watch Food Inc, as well, so you understand the ethical argument is about people, not just animals, it's widely available online, you could watch it today).
    LOL. Sorry, wrong again. I'm not convinced of your arguments that a vegetarian diet is ethical and environmental when the bottom line of ANY farmer is money.

    Have you ever heard of grass fed beef and grass management? These are some of the ethical farming practices to raising beef. But like you said, meat is expensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Why do you say that, I genuinely want to know, but as a starter, please don't use the "but what would happen to the animals if we didn't eat them" argument, because we have driven out wildlife with excessive agriculture, especially cattle farming is the worst in terms of both land and pollution, and cattle are only so numerous because they are force bred. In nature, animals will balance themselves to their ecosystem. We once lived in this manner ourselves, we took up reasonable amounts of space and killed what we needed, but humans have artificially disrupted the entire ecosystem, and that's partially through raising more animal for meat, beginning in the 20th century...and just to add to that, it's mostly been to the purpose of gluttony for the few, not the needs of the many. I have lots of statistics I can provide you with, there's scientific evidence to back environmental vegetarianism, even if you think animals are dim beasts who deserve to be eaten and don't like the ethical argument ( oh but watch Food Inc, as well, so you understand the ethical argument is about people, not just animals, it's widely available online, you could watch it today).

    Then you can say, well, that's just factory farms. ...but see, the reason Americans especially (though not only us) can consume enough meat to make us fat and sick, is because of factory farms. Humane farming means eating a more reasonable amount of meat, or not at all. It's absurd that people from every class eat more meat than likely some aristocratic people did. It's culture, it's status, and it has to be scaled back, or its going to destroy people, as a species, it's not about saving the earth, the earth has been here a long time. ..but people could very well go the way of the dinosaurs and thoughtlessly take a shocking number of species with them. A hundred years ago, people ate about a third of the quantity of meat, it is not just because there are more people, there's actually greed and gluttony at play here, which is definitely an ethical argument.
    Since you've watched Food Inc. you should be aware there's a better way of raising livestock.

    That Documentary shows Joel Salatin produces about 90,000 lbs of beef, pork, and poultry on his 100 acres. If americans cut their meat consumption back to 1950's levels (which is probably a good idea) we could support the meat consumption of America on 2.5% of the land in the lower 48. Moreover, Salatin's methods of rotating livestock around pasture only improves the soil so production rates will only go up from there.
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