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Thread: Confessions

  1. #3271
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Wait how is that un pc?
    Its VERY ideologically correct right now.

  2. #3272
    Oɴᴇ Dᴀʏ ᴀᴛ ᴀ Tɪᴍᴇ Array Yamato Nadeshiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There is no such thing as tabla rasa, instead there are innate predispositions and drives, in a very important sense it is more appropriate to speak of good or bad religion as opposed to religion and irreligion as that which acts as a substitute for traditional religion for many has all the hall marks of religion and often bad religion at that, made all the worse by the conceit that it is not religion and therefore automatically a good thing in contrast.

    It is a strange thing that neglect of learning and teaching for a developing mind should be deemed worthy, like throwing someone in deep water with no prepping or instruction on swimming and trusting "they will figure it out".

    Equally how many times will the wheel be reinvented or history repeat itself before the sharing of the experience and learning of one generation bequethed to another loses its supposedly sinister character?
    I'm not going to judge someone's religion as good or bad, that's not my place. I also do believe that socialization and nurture plays an extremely large part in our experiences and beliefs growing up. Maybe not a completely blank slate to begin with, but still much of it is written.

    I'm not sure what the rest of your post means. I don't think religion is anything like learning to swim, nor is it necessary for a healthy and happy life. I'm not sure what your reinventing the wheel statement means exactly either.

    In my opinion, to be religious or not should be a conscious choice made by someone who isn't trained from a young age what to believe (or not believe). And religion, just like other socialization (gender roles, traditions etc) are very much learned rather than inherent. I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't judge people who are religious for being religious. I do judge people who drag unwilling children to church every Sunday and scold them if they question the faith.


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  3. #3273
    (in)formation Array Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    There is no such thing as tabla rasa, instead there are innate predispositions and drives, in a very important sense it is more appropriate to speak of good or bad religion as opposed to religion and irreligion as that which acts as a substitute for traditional religion for many has all the hall marks of religion and often bad religion at that, made all the worse by the conceit that it is not religion and therefore automatically a good thing in contrast.

    It is a strange thing that neglect of learning and teaching for a developing mind should be deemed worthy, like throwing someone in deep water with no prepping or instruction on swimming and trusting "they will figure it out".

    Equally how many times will the wheel be reinvented or history repeat itself before the sharing of the experience and learning of one generation bequethed to another loses its supposedly sinister character?
    Very, very much this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato Nadeshiko View Post
    I'm not sure what the rest of your post means. I don't think religion is anything like learning to swim, nor is it necessary for a healthy and happy life. I'm not sure what your reinventing the wheel statement means exactly either.
    What he's talking about (or my understanding at least) is that as someone goes through life, they encounter certain existential questions "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "What makes a good person vs a bad person?"

    Answering those questions is inherently challenging because it's really the whole purpose of life. The value of religion is providing a distillation of the answers that thousands of years of humanity have arrived at. Rather than having to start from scratch and essentially reinvent the wheel, faith gives you a way to approach those questions or at least a jumping off point on how to do so.

    I can't speak for other traditions, but at least in the Church. You're supposed to evolve the understanding of your faith over the years. Yeah, you'll teach a 5 year old very black/white, you do this you'll go to Hell, you do that you go to Heaven type things. But that's not the same discussion that someone should be having at 25 or even 55. I think a lot of what gets misunderstood about faith is what Patton Oswald very famously described as "sky cake":



    Most people hear the "sky cake" version of theology and some people stop there because it's all they really need. But any well reasoned person is going to know that sky cake is bullshit and you'd have to be a dumbass to think that a cake that exists in a sky is actually a thing. Usually what you find out with study is that sky cake is a version of a version of a version of a 1000 page opus written by some guy in Spain 500 years ago that's been watered down to a catchphrase.

    To me, sky cake people are troublesome because they basically just sit their own prejudices on top of the cake and are loudly parading around calling themselves religious when really they're just assholes.

    Do you have a better understanding of what @Lark was getting at now? And Lark--feel free to correct me if I misunderstood your point.

  4. #3274
    banshee next door Array magpie's Avatar
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    I read Yama's post as talking specifically about oppressive use of religion rather than encouragment of spiritual growth in children.
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    I read Yama's post as talking specifically about oppressive use of religion rather than encouragment of spiritual growth in children.
    Same
    by @magpie
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  6. #3276
    Oɴᴇ Dᴀʏ ᴀᴛ ᴀ Tɪᴍᴇ Array Yamato Nadeshiko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Very, very much this.



    What he's talking about (or my understanding at least) is that as someone goes through life, they encounter certain existential questions "Who am I?" "Why am I here?" "What makes a good person vs a bad person?"

    Answering those questions is inherently challenging because it's really the whole purpose of life. The value of religion is providing a distillation of the answers that thousands of years of humanity have arrived at. Rather than having to start from scratch and essentially reinvent the wheel, faith gives you a way to approach those questions or at least a jumping off point on how to do so.

    I can't speak for other traditions, but at least in the Church. You're supposed to evolve the understanding of your faith over the years. Yeah, you'll teach a 5 year old very black/white, you do this you'll go to Hell, you do that you go to Heaven type things. But that's not the same discussion that someone should be having at 25 or even 55. I think a lot of what gets misunderstood about faith is what Patton Oswald very famously described as "sky cake":



    Most people hear the "sky cake" version of theology and some people stop there because it's all they really need. But any well reasoned person is going to know that sky cake is bullshit and you'd have to be a dumbass to think that a cake that exists in a sky is actually a thing. Usually what you find out with study is that sky cake is a version of a version of a version of a 1000 page opus written by some guy in Spain 500 years ago that's been watered down to a catchphrase.

    To me, sky cake people are troublesome because they basically just sit their own prejudices on top of the cake and are loudly parading around calling themselves religious when really they're just assholes.

    Do you have a better understanding of what @Lark was getting at now? And Lark--feel free to correct me if I misunderstood your point.
    Yeah, that's a pretty thorough explanation, I appreciate it.

    I do think it's important to explore those questions. Though what I'm really getting it isn't against religion as a tool/use for exploring that, but that it shouldn't be shoved down someone's throat. If we want to prepare children to answer those questions, I think it would be more ethical to either teach them about multiple religions while not forcing them to adhere to any of them if they don't wish, or just start them off with some basic philosophy and let them come to their own answers. My problem isn't with religion as a tool, but parents who have a kid and say "Oh we're Christians so our kid's going to be Christian too and I'm not going to accept otherwise"--that, to me, is brainwashing. The sky cake thing was interesting too, but also less of what I meant. :p


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  7. #3277
    (in)formation Array Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by magpie View Post
    I read Yama's post as talking specifically about oppressive use of religion rather than encouragment of spiritual growth in children.
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    Same
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato Nadeshiko View Post
    Yeah, that's a pretty thorough explanation, I appreciate it.

    I do think it's important to explore those questions. Though what I'm really getting it isn't against religion as a tool/use for exploring that, but that it shouldn't be shoved down someone's throat. If we want to prepare children to answer those questions, I think it would be more ethical to either teach them about multiple religions while not forcing them to adhere to any of them if they don't wish, or just start them off with some basic philosophy and let them come to their own answers. My problem isn't with religion as a tool, but parents who have a kid and say "Oh we're Christians so our kid's going to be Christian too and I'm not going to accept otherwise"--that, to me, is brainwashing. The sky cake thing was interesting too, but also less of what I meant. :p
    Oh I guess I misread. I had interpreted your comment to mean "all religions" and not just people who use religion in the wrong ways.

    I'm totally with that then. I had some fundie friends growing up who were terrifying to me. They were Creationist and pretty retrograde on a lot of other things as well. They went to one of those ultra-rich megachurches and the youth programing was basically designed to center their entire social life around their church and the church culture. They had this million dollar A/V system and would sponsor massive weekend-long Halo tournaments for Jesus. I shit you not. Some of my other friends went one time, but the tourney rounds would be punctuated with the youth pastor giving these long speeches about the importance of chastity and how they should all feel sorry for the people who'd never accept Jesus into their lives. Then they'd all laugh at the Devil as a group.

    My non-Fundie friends never went back after that
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  8. #3278
    hey ma! got a tatoo Array prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind Up Rex View Post
    Oh I guess I misread. I had interpreted your comment to mean "all religions" and not just people who use religion in the wrong ways.

    I'm totally with that then. I had some fundie friends growing up who were terrifying to me. They were Creationist and pretty retrograde on a lot of other things as well. They went to one of those ultra-rich megachurches and the youth programing was basically designed to center their entire social life around their church and the church culture. They had this million dollar A/V system and would sponsor massive weekend-long Halo tournaments for Jesus. I shit you not. Some of my other friends went one time, but the tourney rounds would be punctuated with the youth pastor giving these long speeches about the importance of chastity and how they should all feel sorry for the people who'd never accept Jesus into their lives. Then they'd all laugh at the Devil as a group.

    My non-Fundie friends never went back after that
    Yeah i was raised antiochan orthodox and when i reached high-school i was given the choice to stay or leave i left. Mostly. Because i was told to pity gay people because they were commiting a sin. And i was like theres nothing wrong with them. But i grew up in the south and church here is a huge part of most people's lives even if they're not straight so in Memphis theres a few lgbt churches. Or rather accepting of lgbt and don't consider it a sin.but theres also some brainwashing mega churches as well
    by @magpie
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  9. #3279
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    Took me three months of supervising my INFJ supervisee to learn that she's older than me. O_O

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  10. #3280
    Senior Member Array Lark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato Nadeshiko View Post
    I'm not going to judge someone's religion as good or bad, that's not my place. I also do believe that socialization and nurture plays an extremely large part in our experiences and beliefs growing up. Maybe not a completely blank slate to begin with, but still much of it is written.

    I'm not sure what the rest of your post means. I don't think religion is anything like learning to swim, nor is it necessary for a healthy and happy life. I'm not sure what your reinventing the wheel statement means exactly either.

    In my opinion, to be religious or not should be a conscious choice made by someone who isn't trained from a young age what to believe (or not believe). And religion, just like other socialization (gender roles, traditions etc) are very much learned rather than inherent. I don't mean that in a bad way. I don't judge people who are religious for being religious. I do judge people who drag unwilling children to church every Sunday and scold them if they question the faith.
    I find it really easy to judge the difference between good and bad religion, just as I can good and bad people or good and bad anything and I think its not just everyone's place to do so but that they actually do, all the time, its practically impossible to put a day in without doing so. Now you can kid on that you dont because you're living in an age or place which doesnt think this is a good way to behave and is all embarrassed about it but I think its unavoidable.

    Also, I dont think that there is anything wrong with socialisation, religion or anything else, and I've got a strong belief that there are innate understandings and drives, no one is tabala rasa, and religion is one such, good or bad, enduring response to that and means of channeling it.

    There's lots of private "religions", ie belief systems with rituals, habits, sanctions, norms, mores etc. whether people choose to acknowledge that or not as the same, if its a word they have a phobia about or issue, then alright, dont use that word, its not a matter of semantics and that just complicates life because its the exact same thing. When you choose to raise a child secularist and atheist or agnostic, that's what you're doing, you're not raising someone free until some times and they can take the responsibility for a decision you're wary about yourself, you're raising them irreligious and you're as much violating their choices in the first place by doing so.

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