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  1. #231
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I see. Interesting. Would it be too much pita to try and communicate clearly how the insight is related? Genuine question here
    It seems like an obvious solution. I find it harder to do in reality however. I believe it is mostly related to how the Ni dom makes these connections and it not being a conscious process. You can't explain how you got there. I can do this better in writing because I have more time to think about it and how the message should be communicated for the audience to understand but in the heat of the moment in a verbal interaction, it is not so easy. Ne doms are different. You see the hippity hoppity communication of one point to another to another which are all connected and related. It's an extraverted process and more gradual for the other people on the receiving end of the communication. For the Ni dom, it is introverted. Nobody else can see the process and the Ni dom doesn't even have visibility to it themselves. They tend to wrap it in logic for the most part to get others to understand but the logic is always secondary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It seems like an obvious solution. I find it harder to do in reality however.
    Agreed. If I might jump in, I would compare it to someone asking you to detail why you bought a particular shirt. "I liked it" isn't going to be very informative and might sound snarky, but the whole process of thinking about the color, cut, size, price, etc. happens subconsciously and might not even be recoverable.
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  3. #233
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    You only love people until you figure out they're all "stuck up"? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, just this doesn't make total sense to me. Or are you oscillating kind of in terms of how you view people?
    That might be accurate. I remember the first semester of college being awesome for that reason. Everyone was equally new and alone at first, so everyone was super cool and nice, and I seriously had the best 6 months of my entire life. Once the winter came I noticed that people had clumped together like drops of water and there were petty conflicts between people. I couldn't understand it, everything had been so good. I was never like that, I dunno.

    I guess when I say I love people I mean the right people. I remember the times when there was a confluence of quality people running the show and everyone was cool. Another time was when I was a lifeguard in high school and college during the summers. I think that job just attracts laid back, cool people or something, because we all had a fuckin blast all the time and no one was stuck up.

    When I was a teacher, I had been teaching for about 3 years or so and I somehow kind of got this posse of kids who always stuck around me. It was, I suppose, an inevitable consequence of being around a lot of people all the time--the ones you get along with form that clump, and this one I was not only a part of, but the center of. And we had immense fun. We'd stay after school every day for hours when we could have gone home just playing games and crap.

    Yeah, I guess I do hate most people. But sometimes the right ones get together and beautiful things happen.

  4. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    You only love people until you figure out they're all "stuck up"? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, just this doesn't make total sense to me. Or are you oscillating kind of in terms of how you view people?

  5. #235
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Don't mind discobiscuit. He has a rabbit problem.

  6. #236
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    Well on this topic and being an outlier in society, a little social experiement happened in my world today. I didnt engineer it but maybe is thread has given me some insight into myself I didnt previously possess.

    So I was at work, and I was approached by a random for conversation (pretty typical in my job). So we start chatting away, we find a common topic, social behaviour and share our general views on various situations. I am making an effort here to be benign and not too opinionated, I have to reflect well on my company and choose my words carefully. The conversation goes on for 6 or so minutes and it seems this person is really comfortable and enjoying our conversation. So far so good. Then I make another general statement that I believe to be entirely benign and on topic. The other person suddenly makes an excuse and leaves.

    In reflection, I think one of two things happened here....

    The other individual miscontrued my statement as somehow applying specifically to her and got offended.

    Or

    I made an unconscious inappropriate disclosure.

    In both cases I think I lack the ability to filter and mince my words in order to create the facade of social acceptability. I am perhaps too honest in what I say and therefore shock people. The trouble is when I am lured into comfort by a reciprocal conversation I am no longer filtering and effectively lying as well as others do in similar situations. I am genuinely sharing my thoughts which are unpalatable to others in a way I am completely unaware of. I came to the conclusion that while my internal values aren't radically different to others they are different enough that I cannot maintain the facade of normality for long, partcularly if its a subject I am actually interested in, inevitably it's going to drift into the 'real me' territory.

    Then I had a think about what it would take for me to maintain a facade enough to conform and what I would get out of that. It would take an enormous amount of concentration, effort and energy. At the end of the day, from reading this thread, it seems I would not gain anything more than a little more social comfort and a series of superficial relationships to maintain. The cost versus benefit here just isn't worth the trouble as far as I'm concerned.

    As others have said, people are extremely finicky with narrow tolerance levels. Its also contextual and the goal posts shift constantly. Yes social graces are all well and good and I have enough of them to function moderately well. I'd prefer to keep some part of me real, even if that makes me weird. So at the crossroads of choosing popularity or authenticity, the latter wins out everytime. I have a persona that works for superficial and fun interactions, I think I am best off to leave it there.

  7. #237
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Ahh I see. Well you're a very typical INTx I guess But I'm curious, what way were you talking about sports that was no good? Were you analysing theory behind sports or something?
    More like sports (professional or college) as an indicator of social trends, barometer of popular culture, etc. It's why I like the sports commentator Frank DeFord even though I have no real interest in sports. He always goes far beyond the superficial in discussing sports, to see what it says about the broader human condition and our society.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Err and so why was he so terrible? :p I mean I don't even understand what is meant by studying that so I'm asking. Though the way you put it does sound funny :P

    Otherwise I don't really have any idea why that example would be a problem for people. Maybe just too far from present context? I don't really like jumping around topics that fast, I can do it to a degree but not to an extreme degree. Maybe the same for most people, though I'm not a typical person either.
    Yes, I suspect too far from context - comes across as out of left field (responses akin to "WTF???"


    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    God this shit, by the time I read through all of them, I was feeling like hitting something or someone. This is just about building this fucking stupid social mask. And there's so many rules in there, you can't keep to all of them at the same time, because some of the shit in it is mutually exclusive.
    Agree 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    He may have been autistic but I wouldn't think of it as such, really. I would more just go with "extreme Ti." Which is also the case with me, which is why we got along. It was perfect. Our basic dominant mode of thinking was identical, but he was ISTP and I was INTP. That was a really interesting dynamic. We were both 100% impersonal, we never talked or cared about people. We both just did things our own way, however we found them efficient, which often broke all the rules. And we spoke very offensively.
    Have you stayed in touch with this friend?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #238
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Have you stayed in touch with this friend?
    Yep he just texted me 30 minutes ago. We banter via text pretty frequently still 6 years after college.

    Here was our last chat couple days ago.. may explain the offensive nature of what I've been referring to. This is all sarcasm, btw... guess I'll hide it and say, it's insanely inappropriate, just to warn ya.



    That is typical and unremarkable for us. Just may go to show you how much I clean up my act when I talk to normal people.

  9. #239
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    The thing is though is that those on the site aren't there to be corrected, they're there to date, and sadly most aren't going to fit. The questions aren't for information gathering or sharing, but are there to be used like a sieve to find a better fit. The girl who was wrong, but still said others had to say the same, didn't make sure she was right before saying so, so knowledge and being correct just clearly isn't her thing. THAT'S what I'd take away from it, and would use that knowledge to avoid her. Correcting wouldn't come to mind because of how important knowledge obviously isn't to that person. *shrug*
    Holy crap, it took 23 pages to finally see an actually useful and relevant response to that part of the op! Pretty sad, but not unexpected. This is basically exactly what I would've said as well. The bolded emphasis is further reinforced by her saying she shouldn't be corrected; seems evident of a princess mentality/sexism/entitlement, and thus she is likely a very immature person who wouldn't fit well with you anyways, so it is no loss to you. I would consider her response a red flag for compatibility, delete the message, and think no more of it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if her profile essays and other questions contain more red flags.

    I also found it quite amusing how many people, over and over again, overlooked/didn't read/forgot/ignored the part about her marking that question as mandatory, even after you repeated yourself...must've been two or three times at least! Not to mention the other aspects of that interaction (and others you've mentioned) people here continually failed to take into account. I personally think your message to that girl was plenty polite, given the fact that you were not attempting (or at least not very much) to, first and foremost, establish a relationship with her; it is neutral in content and not even worded aggressively or personally. As you explained later, it's really the same as telling someone their fly is open; a potentially embarrassing thing, but nothing to get upset over. I am not understanding all the butt-hurt displayed in here over what you've been saying, aside from your later combative responses and exclamations of wanting to get banned and so on; understandable given your frustration, but personally I tend to refrain from making such over-the-top comments, which will not lead to anything remotely constructive. If people can't get what you're saying when you say it calmly, doing that isn't going to help them understand any better, and is ultimately just a pointless waste of time aside from mere venting of frustration, which you can do more effectively elsewhere (i.e. not on a forum).

    I think you're a pretty cool guy from what I've seen of you here and there, and I can relate to a lot of your experiences with isolation and being a social outcast and whatnot. I also share your valuation of truth and wanting to correct things where they are wrong (I do have a strong 1-wing, after all.), but before I attempt to do that (and this is something I think would be helpful to you and ultimately make you happier if you did as well) I look at the broader situation and judge the context, and ask myself, what is the chance that this will be accepted in some way, and how can I better my approach to increase that chance?

    If the chance is very low to begin with, then I decide it's not worth it, and move on to something else where my efforts can have a more positive and constructive effect. After all, consistently banging your head on a wall won't make you very happy and will just add to your stress levels and frustration, contributing to your feed-back loop of cynicism.

    If I see there is a moderate chance of success, then I see if I can perhaps tailor my delivery of that correction in a way that will be more readily accepted by the person. So, instead of just blurting it out with nothing given to prepare the person for it, I will engage them in conversation (even if briefly), establish that I have a vested interest in them and their well-being and whatnot (Show that you care; this certainly does not require being fake, though. Use your imagination!), lead into that topic, and ideally try to get them to figure it out for themselves, and if that direction doesn't happen, then I will mention it myself, ideally in a way I think they will be better able to relate to (i.e. explaining a theoretical model to an Si user by relating it to a practical application or concrete proven example...or adjust tone of voice, word phrasing, body language, etc. in order to convey that you are being non-threatening/unassuming to a person who you know to be very sensitive.).

    Immediately putting the correction out there (especially when it is something that is personally identified with and would likely be responded to with a knee-jerk reaction) will just put them on the defensive right away, and thus make them much less willing to consider what you have to say. I know a lot of people will defend their approach of absolute bluntness by saying "I'm just being logical and stating a fact, nobody should be offended by that! If they have a problem with that then they're just over-sensitive and it's not my fault!" and yet fail to consider what I just explained here, which ultimately is actually illogical and narrow-minded because you are assuming everyone should think just like you (not you specifically, zago), and you are not taking into account the broad spectrum of personality, culture, upbringing, and so on that different people have. It is effectively like using a sledgehammer to swat a fly. The tool itself is not to blame for the damage caused, only that the person's approach to solving the problem is one-size-fits-all, and not well-suited for that situation. This is, of course, most commonly associated with Thinkers, and can contribute to a negative stereotype of them (being generally insensitive and lacking empathy), but I think it happens just as much with Feelers too; it just doesn't come out in the same way, though the end result is still the same. Feelers can be very insensitive and lacking in empathy as well, but how they display that is by using more commonly accepted means of communication and social values, and so it is not usually seen as doing the same thing.

    If there is a high chance of success, like if you're about to correct someone who is a good friend or at least knows you well, or if you know they have a similar overall mindset and way of reasoning to you via interaction or observation, then just go ahead and do what comes naturally, since they are used to it and would be more willing to understand and accommodate your natural way of communicating and not ostracize you for it, and would likely even appreciate what you have to say and how you go about saying it, like saying that your valuation of truth and honest observation is refreshing in comparison to what one normally has to deal with.

    Another thing to consider is if the amount of effort you have to put in to that correction is personally worth it to you. If you see that your words are only going to fall on deaf ears, then you're better off spending your time/mental efforts/energy (which are not limitless) elsewhere. Spending resources of any kind where there is not going to be any chance of return or at least appreciation of them is naturally going to make you feel like crap. It is not possible to be completely altruistic and giving of yourself 100% of the time; we are human and imperfect, after all. You can only shrug off constant dismissals and head-butting and insults for so long before it starts to drain you and render you useless, not only to others, but to yourself as well. I think this has happened to you--to what exact degree, I do not know, but it's obvious that you are depressed and jaded--but I think it would do you some good to be more selective in your efforts instead of engaging every person and situation you come across. Yes, truth is very important, but if you go about it while forgetting to be mindful of your own well-being in the process, it will detract from your personal life and ability to take care of yourself, and this then will bleed over into your efforts and render you ineffective and undermine your end goal (which is even evidenced earlier in this thread by your outbursts and people's response to them) by your actions contradicting your intent and ideal approach. People will think, "Why should I have to listen to this hypocrite? Maybe he isn't right after all." Of course, sometimes that reaction is unavoidable regardless of how consistent you are, but I think it can at least be minimized.


    Anyways, I hope I've been at least a little helpful, and I'd be glad to talk to you more if you want. I'm not sure where I was going with this, so I can't think of anything else to say right now haha.

  10. #240
    Riva
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    This thread is really entertaining.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Lolz
    Last edited by Riva; 02-10-2014 at 05:24 PM.

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