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  1. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    God this shit, by the the time I read through all of them, I was feeling like hitting something or someone. This is just about building this fucking stupid social mask. And there's so many rules in there, you can't keep to all of them at the same time, because some of the shit in it is mutually exclusive.

    That's not to say I don't agree with some of the points listed because I do agree with a lot of it. Just the overall picture that comes out is so... fake? shallow? well I have no more words for this.
    Lol! Yeah, like I said, it's the behavioral equivalent of getting hair plugs, a nose job, a facelift, liposuction, a gym membership, and a personal trainer.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Oh and my favourite was where it talks about trying to appear "low maintenance". Yeah so if I'm presenting myself as low maintenance, it's okay for the partner to be the high maintenance one?? Just because if you are trying to be flexible and give in all the time to seem low maintenance, you're not going to be equal to the partner anymore.

    Or when it talks about being positive and avoiding the negative then mentions don't be overly positive either. That sort of thing - the positiveness was just an example of many - points to some nonexistent fine balance, because this is subjective as well, that is, it also depends on the partner's way of seeing things.

    Finally, another favourite: what's wrong with unique features? Do we all really need to be uniform social animals with the same boring shallow mask?
    [Edit:] As for the mutually exclusive or contradictory stuff, I think the message there is "Do X, Y and Z, but don't do them to excess." Too little of X is bad, too much of X is bad, so you have to hit that sweet spot in the middle of X where things are just right. If you can't find that sweet spot in the middle yourself, then you call in a friend or pay for a consultant to help you with that.

  2. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    [Edit:] As for the mutually exclusive or contradictory stuff, I think the message there is "Do X, Y and Z, but don't do them to excess." Too little of X is bad, too much of X is bad, so you have to hit that sweet spot in the middle of X where things are just right. If you can't find that sweet spot in the middle yourself, then you call in a friend or pay for a consultant to help you with that.
    No, no, I think you misunderstood that a bit, my opinion is, I understand the idea is having a fine balance but such a sweet spot doesn't exist because it's subjective. Depends on your environment you're currently in. Do you think there is an objective standard of that that always works everywhere?

  3. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    No, no, I think you misunderstood that a bit, my opinion is, I understand the idea is having a fine balance but such a sweet spot doesn't exist because it's subjective. Depends on your environment you're currently in. Do you think there is an objective standard of that that always works everywhere?
    Put it this way: I think if you're so oblivious to the sweet spot or so far away from it that other people register you as socially awkward and to be avoided, then I would think a friend or consultant can probably be of assistance in getting you a little closer to the sweet spot and to the mainstream.

    I'm not saying that it's necessary; socially awkward people live happy lives all the time without fixing their social awkwardness. But I think that social awkwardness can be pinned down and fixed, if someone is really determined to do that.

  4. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    God this shit, by the time I read through all of them, I was feeling like hitting something or someone. This is just about building this fucking stupid social mask. And there's so many rules in there, you can't keep to all of them at the same time, because some of the shit in it is mutually exclusive.

    That's not to say I don't agree with some of the points listed because I do agree with a lot of it. Just the overall picture that comes out is so... fake? shallow? well I have no more words for this.
    I had the same response.

    I think it's useful to have one's lexicon expanded, to understand that what you think is one presentation could be read differently by another person. It's good to know what the range of possible interpretations can be, so you can make adjustments or understand any negativity directed in your direction and decide what to do from there.

    But... yes, when you look at those lists in one sitting and trying to image trying to "do all those things," well... not gonna happen.

    The reality is that the list doesn't apply to everyone you meet. For example, an introvert might be more inclined to understand another introvert. And we all have encounters with people we like who find someone else palatable and even engaging who we might find annoying enough to avoid. Not everyone will think keeping a neutral presentation makes you a negative person, for example... but it's good to know when static starts getting directed back, and you can decide how to maneuver for your own benefit.

    As an example, I have a friend who doesn't smile at all in pictures because she feels like it's fake and views it as neutral... but even the most easy-going, flexible people who see her pics are like, "What is that facial expression?" The expression she uses [which isn't really neutral, I can't really describe it with words] seems to look worse than just smiling a bit more would be. There are some things that might totally change how we are engaged by others. I guess we each get to decide what we're willing to do and not do, for ourselves, and go from there and live with the outcome.
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  5. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I had the same response.

    I think it's useful to have one's lexicon expanded, to understand that what you think is one presentation could be read differently by another person. It's good to know what the range of possible interpretations can be, so you can make adjustments or understand any negativity directed in your direction and decide what to do from there.

    But... yes, when you look at those lists in one sitting and trying to image trying to "do all those things," well... not gonna happen.

    The reality is that the list doesn't apply to everyone you meet. For example, an introvert might be more inclined to understand another introvert. And we all have encounters with people we like who find someone else palatable and even engaging who we might find annoying enough to avoid. Not everyone will think keeping a neutral presentation makes you a negative person, for example... but it's good to know when static starts getting directed back, and you can decide how to maneuver for your own benefit.

    As an example, I have a friend who doesn't smile at all in pictures because she feels like it's fake and views it as neutral... but even the most easy-going, flexible people who see her pics are like, "What is that facial expression?" The expression she uses [which isn't really neutral, I can't really describe it with words] seems to look worse than just smiling a bit more would be. There are some things that might totally change how we are engaged by others. I guess we each get to decide what we're willing to do and not do, for ourselves, and go from there and live with the outcome.
    That's well-said. Like I said in my earlier post, this stuff is the equivalent of "finishing school" for businesspeople. It's like the stuff people would have learned once upon a time at "charm school": Social graces, which fork to use at the table, a little ballroom dancing…

    It's absolutely not necessary at all. But there's a certain demand for it among people who have to demonstrate a high degree of social skills (diplomats, high-end salespeople, etc). It's good to know it's out there, and the Internet allows one to pick through the curriculum at one's leisure and pick out some pointers--if one is interested.

  6. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Another idea is to socialize while "doing stuff": Take dance lessons, join a choral group, join a gaming crowd, do church activities, join a bowling league, etc. (See Meetup.com) Of course, after the main activity is over, you may still get excluded when people buddy up to go out for drinks. But at least you get in some socialization time.
    I do think hiking meetup group sometimes when it is warm enough. I was doing it almost every day of the week last summer for a while, but ultimately I became disappointed with the people there. I made quite an energetic effort to meet and talk to as many people as possible, probably had conversations with about 50 over the course of many meetups that summer, but only 1 of them seemed to have any true potential as someone I didn't think was ultimately stuck up.

    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Sounds pretty much autistic to be honest, I mean, this quality of not being capable to pay any attention to the partner and just keep talking about whatever. And about such a boring topic as family? I will be honest, I would not have bothered to talk again to your friend after a bit of such interaction. I really think this is the minimum, pay attention to your talking partner! :p

    Guess he was able to pay attention when he was talking to you though?

    Otherwise he sounds funny with all those obscene remarks :P
    He may have been autistic but I wouldn't think of it as such, really. I would more just go with "extreme Ti." Which is also the case with me, which is why we got along. It was perfect. Our basic dominant mode of thinking was identical, but he was ISTP and I was INTP. That was a really interesting dynamic. We were both 100% impersonal, we never talked or cared about people. We both just did things our own way, however we found them efficient, which often broke all the rules. And we spoke very offensively.

    But the Ne/Se auxiliary difference still made it sort of an odd-couple thing. It was quite similar to Fear and Loathing's dynamic, where I would try to keep to myself and wax philosophical as he went around behaving monstrously and recklessly offending people. I found the arrangement quite complimentary... something for others to be envious of. And indeed they were. People are always bothered by 2 best friends who are that in tune. We spoke our own language pretty much. We could be in a room full of people and just be dropping jokes out loud and cracking up while everyone else was left behind and slightly annoyed. We would have loved to include them, but they just couldn't handle the shit we were referring to. It was all out of their context and offensive.

    Yes, now that I think of it, it was indeed a lot like Fear and Loathing. The perfect scene to describe it is that scene where they are watching the "know your dope fiend" presentation, and it's like they are the only real people in a sea of group.

  7. #227
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    Oh, so THAT's what Juliet meant!?

    I remember that question on okc, and I did want to know the answer. So, thanks, @zago.

    The thing is though is that those on the site aren't there to be corrected, they're there to date, and sadly most aren't going to fit. The questions aren't for information gathering or sharing, but are there to be used like a sieve to find a better fit. The girl who was wrong, but still said others had to say the same, didn't make sure she was right before saying so, so knowledge and being correct just clearly isn't her thing. THAT'S what I'd take away from it, and would use that knowledge to avoid her. Correcting wouldn't come to mind because of how important knowledge obviously isn't to that person. *shrug*

    Still, as crappy as that site is, it's still one of the best options for introverts to meet others for dating. That's where they usually are, on their comps. Just like beer-guzzling, annoying extroverts are more likely to find others of their kind at bars than on okc. Hope you don't give up.
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  8. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Wonder if WhoCares does that? The bolded.

    What's the Ni context shift like? Have you got some examples?
    Here is an example. There are five people in a conversation about some course of action being discussed. They are going back and forth having this dialogue providing their opinions, reacting to what each other are saying, diving down specific rabbit holes. The INTJ is listening to all of these different things that they are talking about and sees each of their points of view. They don't necessarily acknowledge the other people through body language, facial expression, nodding, etc. They think there is some important thing that the group is missing. The INTJ begins forms an impression about all the stuff being talked about, based on a bunch of other things that they know, thinks about how the course of action this group is discussing is going to affect things in the future - connecting all the dots and forming a personal metaperspective on all of these bits and pieces of information. The INTJ interjects this insight that everyone else is missing into the conversation. Most people in the discussion are thrown off. It is like the INTJ is changing the subject. To make matters worse, the INTJ does not clearly communicate how this insight is directly related to what person X, Y, or Z has said in the conversation and the overall dialogue that is taking place. They just blurt it out. That is the context shift.

    What often happens is that there will be one or two people who pick up the relevance of the point the INTJ is raising and they will try to rephrase it in a different way and explain it to the others. At that point, people are like "oohhh... I get it". Sometimes people ignore what the INTJ said because they don't understand the relevance. They just keep diving down the rabbit hole that is the current conversation.

    That's what it's like to be an INTJ.

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  9. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLD View Post
    Put it this way: I think if you're so oblivious to the sweet spot or so far away from it that other people register you as socially awkward and to be avoided, then I would think a friend or consultant can probably be of assistance in getting you a little closer to the sweet spot and to the mainstream.

    I'm not saying that it's necessary; socially awkward people live happy lives all the time without fixing their social awkwardness. But I think that social awkwardness can be pinned down and fixed, if someone is really determined to do that.
    Alright that makes sense. I will admit I didn't think of it that way. :o


    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I had the same response.
    (...)
    Like your thoughts on this You put it very well.


    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I do think hiking meetup group sometimes when it is warm enough. I was doing it almost every day of the week last summer for a while, but ultimately I became disappointed with the people there. I made quite an energetic effort to meet and talk to as many people as possible, probably had conversations with about 50 over the course of many meetups that summer, but only 1 of them seemed to have any true potential as someone I didn't think was ultimately stuck up.
    You only love people until you figure out they're all "stuck up"? I'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, just this doesn't make total sense to me. Or are you oscillating kind of in terms of how you view people?


    He may have been autistic but I wouldn't think of it as such, really. I would more just go with "extreme Ti." Which is also the case with me, which is why we got along. It was perfect. Our basic dominant mode of thinking was identical, but he was ISTP and I was INTP. That was a really interesting dynamic. We were both 100% impersonal, we never talked or cared about people. We both just did things our own way, however we found them efficient, which often broke all the rules. And we spoke very offensively.

    But the Ne/Se auxiliary difference still made it sort of an odd-couple thing. It was quite similar to Fear and Loathing's dynamic, where I would try to keep to myself and wax philosophical as he went around behaving monstrously and recklessly offending people. I found the arrangement quite complimentary... something for others to be envious of. And indeed they were. People are always bothered by 2 best friends who are that in tune. We spoke our own language pretty much. We could be in a room full of people and just be dropping jokes out loud and cracking up while everyone else was left behind and slightly annoyed. We would have loved to include them, but they just couldn't handle the shit we were referring to. It was all out of their context and offensive.

    Yes, now that I think of it, it was indeed a lot like Fear and Loathing. The perfect scene to describe it is that scene where they are watching the "know your dope fiend" presentation, and it's like they are the only real people in a sea of group.
    Haha sounds fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Here is an example. There are five people in a conversation about some course of action being discussed. They are going back and forth having this dialogue providing their opinions, reacting to what each other are saying, diving down specific rabbit holes. The INTJ is listening to all of these different things that they are talking about and sees each of their points of view. They don't necessarily acknowledge the other people through body language, facial expression, nodding, etc. They think there is some important thing that the group is missing. The INTJ begins forms an impression about all the stuff being talked about, based on a bunch of other things that they know, thinks about how the course of action this group is discussing is going to affect things in the future - connecting all the dots and forming a personal metaperspective on all of these bits and pieces of information. The INTJ interjects this insight that everyone else is missing into the conversation. Most people in the discussion are thrown off. It is like the INTJ is changing the subject. To make matters worse, the INTJ does not clearly communicate how this insight is directly related to what person X, Y, or Z has said in the conversation and the overall dialogue that is taking place. They just blurt it out. That is the context shift.

    What often happens is that there will be one or two people who pick up the relevance of the point the INTJ is raising and they will try to rephrase it in a different way and explain it to the others. At that point, people are like "oohhh... I get it". Sometimes people ignore what the INTJ said because they don't understand the relevance. They just keep diving down the rabbit hole that is the current conversation.

    That's what it's like to be an INTJ.
    I see. Interesting. Would it be too much pita to try and communicate clearly how the insight is related? Genuine question here

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