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  1. #201
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Well I remember an ESFP once said that you should be yourself and you will be accepted.
    Sure, people say that who have an easy time with it, but then you get stuff like this:



    Like, it's mean that the crowd is laughing and jeering, but at the same time, those people shouldn't have been dancing or singing (in a performance, that is). I really don't know the back story on it, though, but it nevertheless shows this sort of double standard people hold.

    Nice goal there. Something to live for?
    Absolutely.

  2. #202
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Above vid explained:


  3. #203
    WhoCares
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    @valaki, I do want to answer your questions but those answers deserve some background information. My experience is a difficult one to understand particularly by anyone who experiences inclusion in a group as a matter of course. My experience sounds incredulous and even far fetched. In fact being viewed as anything other than a hypersenstive person is a daily difficulty.

    As a child, even a very small one I knew that acceptance into a group was something people just have. I also knew that of course, you've got to find your group. Not everyone is going to accept you. All children understand this intutively as did I. So I set about finding my group by interacting with lots of other kids, and one by one, I was rejected. By teenagerhood, I was now able to distinguish that the adults in my life were poorly skilled socially and their methods of engaging had negative outcomes. So now I knew I needed help because I could not learn from the 'responsible adults' present in my life. So I asked for help. Lots of advice came, some of it worked, a lot of it didn't and I still couldn't find my group. As an adult I embarked on a decade of social skill development by various methods, wrkshops, books, practising and practising some more. Observing and practising. I was getting better at first impressions and even holding a facade now of civility and my career took off and I began to climb the corporate ladder. My skills were now recognised and I was acceptable to hold down a career. But socially, I am still an outcast and the brunt of insider jokes. The problem seems to be, once people get to know me (a period fo engagement lasting everal hours ), they begin the process of distancing. I am held by many acquaintainces to be well liked. But apparently not well liked enough to be invited to social gatherings or even being invited into more than acquaintance.

    The ridicule I speak of are in the finer details, not any outward agrression as such. It's the smirks, the meaningful glances, the sniggering, the insider jokes. It's in the conversations that abruptly end when I enter a room and just as quickly resume when I leave. It's in people all going somewhere for drinks but the invitation is never extended to me, yet they all chat about it around me. People think they can cover this up, they can't. It's noticed, its apparent and its constant. When you experience this over and over again for years on end it simply does not slide off and leave you unaffected. It's a prolonged period of exclusion that eventually begins to signal to you, you're defective in some fundamental way.

    The most hurtful aspect isn't in anything anyone has said to me. It's in the knowledge that despite all that I know, all my effort and all my desire to do something about it. I've failed. I haven't just failed at something trivial like learning to cook chicken casserole. I've failed at the one thing that most people take for granted. A basic lfe skill. The abillity to be part of society. All the other skills and abilities I have mean absolutely nothing when I continue to fail at the one thing everyone agree's you absolutely cannot do without.

    And then when you verbalise this to someone who's never had an issue with finding their group, they look at you like you are making up stories, you must be hypersentive or have a victim mentality. Just be yourself and you'll be included too, or you're just hanging out with the wrong people. The frustration I feel cannot even be expressed.

    For the vast majority of people finding their group is never anything they even have to think about. It happens automatically. They have things in common with others, they have an acceptable mode of expression, something about them just feels right to other people. For me, exclsuion is what comes naturally, I have not much in common, my expression isnt acceptable despite all my practising and apparently there is an indefinable off-ness to my being.

    To compensate, I've created an entirely fake persona, a performer, that I trot out in order to give others something to relate to. This persona is extremely extroverted, witty and the life of the party. But this persona isn't real, it feels like a betryal to use it and it only garners limited acceptance, not much more than the real me does. People like it because it entertains them, but that is exactly what they expect of me, entertainment, then go away. There is no connection, no authenticity, no validity of who I am as a person.

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    @valaki, I do want to answer your questions but those answers deserve some background information. My experience is a difficult one to understand particularly by anyone who experiences inclusion in a group as a matter of course. My experience sounds incredulous and even far fetched. In fact being viewed as anything other than a hypersenstive person is a daily difficulty.
    It doesn't sound far fetched at all.


    As a child, even a very small one I knew that acceptance into a group was something people just have. I also knew that of course, you've got to find your group. Not everyone is going to accept you. All children understand this intutively as did I.
    Hey that's pretty cool, you started out better than I did!

    I had NO awareness of groups WHATSOEVER. And I didn't care. And I was happy. And I once was included spontaneously and I enjoyed it, I thought to myself "wow this is cool". Then the situation ended and I forgot all about it, I didn't try to repeat the experience. At the age of 13, the blissful ignorance ended though. Though, even before that, I was slowly starting to recognise something was wrong but it was still only a superficial awareness, in terms of me not often stressing about not being included. I did become more antagonistic though. I could now see groups and be instantly antagonistic to them. Before this very rudimentary awareness, I wasn't antagonistic as I simply had no idea whatsoever Well then I don't know what happened at age of 13, but I did realise I wanted to be included. And it didn't work out. As a teenager I had some attempts, though I tried nowhere near as hard as you, but I do relate to your experiences to an extent. I only tried like for a couple of weeks lol, then I saw something was off and I just shrugged and went on being the outsider. (Though I believe that unconsciously I experienced stress that drained my energy after a while. This was to do with my holding back from certain interactions and I'm naturally more of an extravert than an introvert. This connection I didn't realize at that time.)


    So I set about finding my group by interacting with lots of other kids, and one by one, I was rejected. By teenagerhood, I was now able to distinguish that the adults in my life were poorly skilled socially and their methods of engaging had negative outcomes. So now I knew I needed help because I could not learn from the 'responsible adults' present in my life. So I asked for help. Lots of advice came, some of it worked, a lot of it didn't and I still couldn't find my group. As an adult I embarked on a decade of social skill development by various methods, wrkshops, books, practising and practising some more. Observing and practising. I was getting better at first impressions and even holding a facade now of civility and my career took off and I began to climb the corporate ladder. My skills were now recognised and I was acceptable to hold down a career. But socially, I am still an outcast and the brunt of insider jokes. The problem seems to be, once people get to know me (a period fo engagement lasting everal hours ), they begin the process of distancing. I am held by many acquaintainces to be well liked. But apparently not well liked enough to be invited to social gatherings or even being invited into more than acquaintance.
    But do you have any idea why they start to distance themselves from you? Have you ever tried to analyse this?


    The ridicule I speak of are in the finer details, not any outward agrression as such. It's the smirks, the meaningful glances, the sniggering, the insider jokes. It's in the conversations that abruptly end when I enter a room and just as quickly resume when I leave. It's in people all going somewhere for drinks but the invitation is never extended to me, yet they all chat about it around me. People think they can cover this up, they can't. It's noticed, its apparent and its constant. When you experience this over and over again for years on end it simply does not slide off and leave you unaffected. It's a prolonged period of exclusion that eventually begins to signal to you, you're defective in some fundamental way.
    Well that, I just simply go on alone so no such stress for me but I understand how it can be painful for you.

    And LOL about how people think this can be covered up. Did you ever call them out on this bullshit? :P (Not that it necessarily helps very much, I have done this a few times myself. The confrontation itself, that was good to do, the result was no good.)


    The most hurtful aspect isn't in anything anyone has said to me. It's in the knowledge that despite all that I know, all my effort and all my desire to do something about it. I've failed. I haven't just failed at something trivial like learning to cook chicken casserole. I've failed at the one thing that most people take for granted. A basic lfe skill. The abillity to be part of society. All the other skills and abilities I have mean absolutely nothing when I continue to fail at the one thing everyone agree's you absolutely cannot do without.
    Apparently one can do pretty well without it. *shrug*

    So I don't agree with "everyone".

    And a question, what do you think it is that being part of society gives you that your other abilities won't? Why do you think one "cannot do" without being part of society? Meaning what exactly?


    And then when you verbalise this to someone who's never had an issue with finding their group, they look at you like you are making up stories, you must be hypersentive or have a victim mentality. Just be yourself and you'll be included too, or you're just hanging out with the wrong people. The frustration I feel cannot even be expressed.
    Sorry if my previous questions sounded silly.

    I still wonder if you ever asked anyone why they feel like this about you. Not in front of the whole group of course. Someone who's part of the group and seems more welcoming or honest than the others.


    For the vast majority of people finding their group is never anything they even have to think about. It happens automatically. They have things in common with others, they have an acceptable mode of expression, something about them just feels right to other people. For me, exclsuion is what comes naturally, I have not much in common, my expression isnt acceptable despite all my practising and apparently there is an indefinable off-ness to my being.
    I still would like to know what your unacceptable expression is like exactly. Do you know?


    To compensate, I've created an entirely fake persona, a performer, that I trot out in order to give others something to relate to. This persona is extremely extroverted, witty and the life of the party. But this persona isn't real, it feels like a betryal to use it and it only garners limited acceptance, not much more than the real me does. People like it because it entertains them, but that is exactly what they expect of me, entertainment, then go away. There is no connection, no authenticity, no validity of who I am as a person.
    Ah, I do that too but it's not a persona for me, I genuinely enjoy the interaction :p And I find I'm happiest if I don't expect anything as a result. By default I never did (expect anything) and when I tried to, it just made no sense so dropped that.


    On another note, I want to add, I found that sometimes threesomes worked pretty well I don't mean in bed hahahah. I mean, me and two other people, spending time together all interaction heavy, fun, all the shit, working well, nobody left out. (Two other people => not just random people obviously.) Have you ever experienced that at least?

  5. #205
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Did you ever ask for an invitation? Did you ever try initiating convos or joining a convo? Maybe this is a silly sort of question but I'm curious.
    I never asked for invitations, but I remember wishing I would get them. Every so often, I did. When I finally went to the event, I wondered what everyone else saw in it. It was an empty, foolish waste of time. I learned how silly it was to wish for something I didn't even enjoy. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I never asked for invitations, but I remember wishing I would get them. Every so often, I did. When I finally went to the event, I wondered what everyone else saw in it. It was an empty, foolish waste of time. I learned how silly it was to wish for something I didn't even enjoy. The grass isn't always greener on the other side.
    Lol well that's good you're not actually missing out on something then Why didn't you enjoy it though?


    @WhoCares - I don't usually edit my posts so much but the one above, I did, so if you already read it, do read it again before answering

  7. #207
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post

    And then when you verbalise this to someone who's never had an issue with finding their group, they look at you like you are making up stories, you must be hypersentive or have a victim mentality. Just be yourself and you'll be included too, or you're just hanging out with the wrong people. The frustration I feel cannot even be expressed.

    For the vast majority of people finding their group is never anything they even have to think about. It happens automatically. They have things in common with others, they have an acceptable mode of expression, something about them just feels right to other people. For me, exclsuion is what comes naturally, I have not much in common, my expression isnt acceptable despite all my practising and apparently there is an indefinable off-ness to my being.

    To compensate, I've created an entirely fake persona, a performer, that I trot out in order to give others something to relate to. This persona is extremely extroverted, witty and the life of the party. But this persona isn't real, it feels like a betryal to use it and it only garners limited acceptance, not much more than the real me does. People like it because it entertains them, but that is exactly what they expect of me, entertainment, then go away. There is no connection, no authenticity, no validity of who I am as a person.
    Thanks for sharing your experience. At least people know I'm not the only one who feels this way now. It truly is something people take for granted, the ability to fit in, and they blame others who have trouble and imagine that they just aren't trying very hard or are bad people or something.

    Again, much of what you say rings true. You hit the nail on the head. I also desperately want to just ... banter with people like everyone else, but the only people I can do that with are other outcasts like myself. I simply don't fit in, and it's not due to lack of effort or some malicious aspect of my character.

    Who could look at this honest account and condemn and criticize? Who could simply look down their nose and offer trite advice?

    Belonging is a very, very difficult thing to do without, and most people are not unlucky enough to have to experience it. That's why they give these responses.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I think it is harder for INTJs because we are so different than a lot of people. A lot of social interaction is really about connecting and chemistry. The world is full of SPs and SJs that have a natural comradery with each other. Also, there are other things. What do INTJs do that would cause them to be excluded? They don't smile. They appear impassive. They don't show emotion. They don't engage in enough eye contact. They often don't talk much. They can be critical. They inject things into conversations that seem irrelevant to the point at hand (Ni context shift). People just don't get us a lot of times, think we're arrogant or stuck up. I think other threads have been written about this.

    I find the older I get, the easier this stuff is or at least I don't beat myself up about it as much anymore.
    Wonder if WhoCares does that? The bolded.

    What's the Ni context shift like? Have you got some examples?

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Thanks for sharing your experience. At least people know I'm not the only one who feels this way now. It truly is something people take for granted, the ability to fit in, and they blame others who have trouble and imagine that they just aren't trying very hard or are bad people or something.
    Yeah you know I didn't read the whole thread but I thought it was a lot of pretty silly or just superficial advice. Even the ones that were attempts at helping before people giving them got upset by your responses. Why on earth can't people who attempt to give advice understand that it's not as simple as the receiver of the advice instantly understanding everything as it is in the head of the adviser? Why the need to get upset?


    Again, much of what you say rings true. You hit the nail on the head. I also desperately want to just ... banter with people like everyone else
    Really quick question, if you tried to banter, did people just ignore you? Or did you just not know how to banter?

  10. #210
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    Really quick question, if you tried to banter, did people just ignore you? Or did you just not know how to banter?
    I can't banter in a socially acceptable way. My sense of humor is dark and likes to go to places and topics that offend people. When I find those rare people who don't have those sensitivities, I can banter fine enough.

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