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  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I noticed you answered that the "wherefore" in "wherefore art thou Romeo" means "where" and not "why." Thought you might want to know that it actually does mean "why." Juliet isn't asking Romeo where he is. She is asking him why he has to be who he is, such that their love is forbidden. I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you put it as mandatory or very important that your match say "where" and that would be incorrect.
    I didn't read the whole thread, so, sorry if someone already commented on this... I do this sort of thing myself but not on dating sites. I think the right context helps a bit. Though, I still don't get to be liked by a few people.


    Honestly I don't even quite know what this means. Is she saying women shouldn't ever be corrected, and must always be considered correct by men even when they are egregiously wrong? Is she saying that taking the time to correct a woman is such an exercise in futility that only a very bored person would actually do it?
    I don't know. I'm going to have to read the thread to find out if maybe someone explained that. :P


    Alone, this example wouldn't mean much, but it is literally all I see in the world. Stuff just doesn't make sense to me. My twitter blew up last week over some football game I still can't even identify. I guess like 55 million people watched? I can only feel a sense of despair when I hear something like that... a sense of profound isolation. I'm just saying this because I don't want the feminist attack brigade on my ass for this. It's PEOPLE that disgust me, not women.
    O_o

    Why do you care though? Say if you had a couple of friends, would you still care about being "left out" like that?


    Quote Originally Posted by fidelia View Post
    It appears to me that you do not want to be vulnerable, as it leaves the door open for people to take advantage of you. My guess is that you have excellent reasons based on personal experience for feeling this way. Unfortunately, when you are unwilling to be even selectively vulnerable, it also cuts you off from human warmth and intimacy too.
    How do you propose to "be selectively vulnerable"? If he'd started with a funny joke then maybe the girl on okcupid would have replied differently but how's that to do with any kind of vulnerability?


    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are changing my example, but it doesn't matter. Either someone makes the most of what they have, or they do not. The problem is less in the inherent limitation than in their response to it. People will quite readily say, "I can't do this because of X deficiency" when what they really mean is "I can't do this because I haven't bothered to address X deficiency". That is the difference, and it can be huge.
    No, that's oversimplified. Maybe there's some people who actually just don't bother to address the issue. But I believe there are people too who would be willing to address it, they just don't know how. They don't even know how/where to start! And then some of those people don't even realise that they are being prevented from addressing the issue by not understanding where to start and why. It's then an unconscious decision to put off dealing with the issue. Then that can pretty much look like they just aren't "bothering". But to me this is a quite unempathetic oversimplification........ one that's not going to help anyone.

    Sure otherwise I get what you mean, just this one point is where I disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    It's all been explained by the other posters. People don't like being criticized. You criticized someone you don't even know out of the blue about something they likely perceive as a pretty trivial. It's not an especially effective interaction style though you were fortunate to get a fairly decent response from the person anyway.
    What would have been not so "fairly decent" as a response?...

    In the place of that girl, I wouldn't have seen it as offensive, the way the OP worded his message. I've seen much worse kind of criticism, this was a simple correction of a fact.

    Btw don't get me wrong, I agree with much of the rest of what you said.

  2. #192
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I didn't read the whole thread, so, sorry if someone already commented on this... I do this sort of thing myself but not on dating sites. I think the right context helps a bit. Though, I still don't get to be liked by a few people.

    I don't know. I'm going to have to read the thread to find out if maybe someone explained that. :P
    Lol no, no one really did. I was just joking with those questions really. I explained it in the end by comparing her to a parrot. Just noises with no thoughts behind them.

    O_o

    Why do you care though? Say if you had a couple of friends, would you still care about being "left out" like that?
    Yeah, I'd still care. I like being popular, I'm not even going to lie here. It's spectacular to be friends with everyone, the more people the better. At different times in my life I have had different levels of popularity. The times when I was most popular were totally the greatest. They happened just by being in the right circumstances, though. If I ever tried to make it happen, it wouldn't work. So yes friends do make it better, but being left out is being left out. Doesn't feel good whatever the case may be! At a certain point it's hard to complain about being left out if you've got plenty of friends, though, yes. But like look at the Big Bang Theory guys. They are all good friends but society at large ridicules them. I'd have a chip on my shoulder about that for sure.

    How do you propose to "be selectively vulnerable"? If he'd started with a funny joke then maybe the girl on okcupid would have replied differently but how's that to do with any kind of vulnerability?
    I don't think you really have to be vulnerable to have this sort of success. I've seen plenty of good relationships in my life where I never acted vulnerable. In fact I've found that whenever I made an effort to be vulnerable because its what I thought I was supposed to do, it was just weird and unfulfilling.

  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Yeah, I'd still care. I like being popular, I'm not even going to lie here. It's spectacular to be friends with everyone, the more people the better. At different times in my life I have had different levels of popularity. The times when I was most popular were the greatest....but being left out is being left out. Doesn't feel good whatever the case may be! At a certain point it's hard to complain about being left out if you've got plenty of friends, though, yes. But like look at the Big Bang Theory guys. They are all good friends but society at large ridicules them.
    Here is where I agree. Society is a game I cannot win. Its a game I cannot even reasonably participate in most of the time. I have spent my entire youth (last 20yrs), carefully studying others and learning those Fe rules which are the fabric of existence on this planet and yet it doesn't help. People just take exception to who I am, no matter how I present it.

    I dont believe I'm simply brash or rude and am unaware of it, the reason why is that I am regularly and easily hired into and promoted in people jobs. If I were off in my communication I doubt I would get that far. But no matter where I go or what I do or how well I do it, there is always that element of exclusion. I am never invited to coworker gatherings, never included in any of the social games nor even most of the conversations either. And its frustrating. Fustrating because its a terrible hypocrisy. People are so willing to stand in judgement of me whether I engage by the rules or not. Working hard to conform garners me absolutey nothing except more condemnation, ridicule and exclusion. Yet they feel justified in treating me with arious levels of rudeness with impunity. Now at 40 I'm ready to say fuck it, why even bother? But even from that stance I lose because like everyone else I'd like to be included, just once.

    I have to give up on society and people in general. My curiosity with others is constantly met with rejection or snide barbs. The more I know about other people, the less I find to like in them. Guess I wont be integrating anytime soon since society is so insistent that I just dont belong, despite my effort and desire to do so. i am now setting myself for a lifetime of loneliness where I can work independantly, live without contact with others, and minimise my exposure to a group that does not welcome me anyway. If these were more barbaric times I would have been stoned by the age of 10.

  4. #194
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Here is where I agree. Society is a game I cannot win. Its a game I cannot even reasonably participate in most of the time. I have spent my entire youth (last 20yrs), carefully studying others and learning those Fe rules which are the fabric of existence on this planet and yet it doesn't help. People just take exception to who I am, no matter how I present it.

    I dont believe I'm simply brash or rude and am unaware of it, the reason why is that I am regularly and easily hired into and promoted in people jobs. If I were off in my communication I doubt I would get that far. But no matter where I go or what I do or how well I do it, there is always that element of exclusion. I am never invited to coworker gatherings, never included in any of the social games nor even most of the conversations either. And its frustrating. Fustrating because its a terrible hypocrisy. People are so willing to stand in judgement of me whether I engage by the rules or not. Working hard to conform garners me absolutey nothing except more condemnation, ridicule and exclusion. Yet they feel justified in treating me with arious levels of rudeness with impunity. Now at 40 I'm ready to say fuck it, why even bother? But even from that stance I lose because like everyone else I'd like to be included, just once.

    I have to give up on society and people in general. My curiosity with others is constantly met with rejection or snide barbs. The more I know about other people, the less I find to like in them. Guess I wont be integrating anytime soon since society is so insistent that I just dont belong, despite my effort and desire to do so. i am now setting myself for a lifetime of loneliness where I can work independantly, live without contact with others, and minimise my exposure to a group that does not welcome me anyway. If these were more barbaric times I would have been stoned by the age of 10.
    Yep that's exactly how I feel, pretty much to the T, and that's my plan as well.

  5. #195
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post

    What would have been not so "fairly decent" as a response?...

    In the place of that girl, I wouldn't have seen it as offensive, the way the OP worded his message. I've seen much worse kind of criticism, this was a simple correction of a fact.

    Btw don't get me wrong, I agree with much of the rest of what you said.
    She said he must be bored. That doesn't sound too bad to me. At least she responded. Worse would have been FU, Screw off or something else like that.

    I don't think his message was offensive per say. It's just demonstrates poor social skills. It's not a good first liner for someone you are looking to establish interaction with. Maybe he wasn't though. It was just a compulsive need to correct.

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  6. #196
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I don't think his message was offensive per say. It's just demonstrates poor social skills. It's not a good first liner for someone you are looking to establish interaction with. Maybe he wasn't though. It was just a compulsive need to correct.
    I don't think he was trying to connect, just correct the error, like some of us will put trash in the trash can when we see it, whether or not someone else asks us to or even cares.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #197
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    Here is where I agree. Society is a game I cannot win. Its a game I cannot even reasonably participate in most of the time. I have spent my entire youth (last 20yrs), carefully studying others and learning those Fe rules which are the fabric of existence on this planet and yet it doesn't help. People just take exception to who I am, no matter how I present it.

    I dont believe I'm simply brash or rude and am unaware of it, the reason why is that I am regularly and easily hired into and promoted in people jobs. If I were off in my communication I doubt I would get that far. But no matter where I go or what I do or how well I do it, there is always that element of exclusion. I am never invited to coworker gatherings, never included in any of the social games nor even most of the conversations either. And its frustrating. Fustrating because its a terrible hypocrisy. People are so willing to stand in judgement of me whether I engage by the rules or not. Working hard to conform garners me absolutey nothing except more condemnation, ridicule and exclusion. Yet they feel justified in treating me with arious levels of rudeness with impunity. Now at 40 I'm ready to say fuck it, why even bother? But even from that stance I lose because like everyone else I'd like to be included, just once.

    I have to give up on society and people in general. My curiosity with others is constantly met with rejection or snide barbs. The more I know about other people, the less I find to like in them. Guess I wont be integrating anytime soon since society is so insistent that I just dont belong, despite my effort and desire to do so. i am now setting myself for a lifetime of loneliness where I can work independantly, live without contact with others, and minimise my exposure to a group that does not welcome me anyway. If these were more barbaric times I would have been stoned by the age of 10.
    I think it is harder for INTJs because we are so different than a lot of people. A lot of social interaction is really about connecting and chemistry. The world is full of SPs and SJs that have a natural comradery with each other. Also, there are other things. What do INTJs do that would cause them to be excluded? They don't smile. They appear impassive. They don't show emotion. They don't engage in enough eye contact. They often don't talk much. They can be critical. They inject things into conversations that seem irrelevant to the point at hand (Ni context shift). People just don't get us a lot of times, think we're arrogant or stuck up. I think other threads have been written about this.

    I find the older I get, the easier this stuff is or at least I don't beat myself up about it as much anymore.

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  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Lol no, no one really did. I was just joking with those questions really. I explained it in the end by comparing her to a parrot. Just noises with no thoughts behind them.
    I'm not sure about the parrot example. She could just be thinking very differently. You know, MBTI is about that ;P


    Yeah, I'd still care. I like being popular, I'm not even going to lie here. It's spectacular to be friends with everyone, the more people the better. At different times in my life I have had different levels of popularity. The times when I was most popular were totally the greatest. They happened just by being in the right circumstances, though. If I ever tried to make it happen, it wouldn't work. So yes friends do make it better, but being left out is being left out. Doesn't feel good whatever the case may be! At a certain point it's hard to complain about being left out if you've got plenty of friends, though, yes. But like look at the Big Bang Theory guys. They are all good friends but society at large ridicules them. I'd have a chip on my shoulder about that for sure.
    Ah, I see. I do like interaction with people myself, so in terms of that being popular is good to me too. Is this what you meant by it? Just curious.


    I don't think you really have to be vulnerable to have this sort of success. I've seen plenty of good relationships in my life where I never acted vulnerable. In fact I've found that whenever I made an effort to be vulnerable because its what I thought I was supposed to do, it was just weird and unfulfilling.
    What were those efforts like?


    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    But no matter where I go or what I do or how well I do it, there is always that element of exclusion. I am never invited to coworker gatherings, never included in any of the social games nor even most of the conversations either.
    Did you ever ask for an invitation? Did you ever try initiating convos or joining a convo? Maybe this is a silly sort of question but I'm curious.


    And its frustrating. Fustrating because its a terrible hypocrisy. People are so willing to stand in judgement of me whether I engage by the rules or not. Working hard to conform garners me absolutey nothing except more condemnation, ridicule and exclusion. Yet they feel justified in treating me with arious levels of rudeness with impunity.
    Uhm if you mean explicit ridiculing then forget the above questions I guess.


    Now at 40 I'm ready to say fuck it, why even bother? But even from that stance I lose because like everyone else I'd like to be included, just once.
    I only have one thought, try finding people who are actually willing to spend time with you and "be included" with them. OK, sure, easier said than done? (By this I meant being selective and ignore other people who it didn't work out with)


    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    She said he must be bored. That doesn't sound too bad to me. At least she responded. Worse would have been FU, Screw off or something else like that.

    I don't think his message was offensive per say. It's just demonstrates poor social skills. It's not a good first liner for someone you are looking to establish interaction with. Maybe he wasn't though. It was just a compulsive need to correct.
    Alright, I guess I'm not one who judges communication by "social skills" in a refined way. I mean, I notice basic things that disrupt the flow of communication like if someone doesn't make eye contact but I don't notice it if someone doesn't stick to formalities, e.g. rules about what are "good" first liners etc. I couldn't care less. People are all different and what is a "good" first liner for someone will not be any good for another anyway.

    As for the girl's message, it was pretty much a piece of condescending lecturing IMO. More offensive than OP's original message, for sure. IMO. I'm not even sure if FU would have been worse ;p

  9. #199
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by valaki View Post
    I'm not sure about the parrot example. She could just be thinking very differently. You know, MBTI is about that ;P
    Na, pretty sure she has about as much going on upstairs as a relatively smart bird. Maybe she can dance good or something. Some people find that important. I am open minded, myself. If she wanted to teach me some simple stuff that would make me a better dancer, hypothetically, I'd be like cool, that really helps! Especially if I had posted a video of myself doing a certain dance and had made an easily correctable mistake or something. I wouldn't have said "SMH DON'T CORRECT MEN LOL U R BORED."

    Ah, I see. I do like interaction with people myself, so in terms of that being popular is good to me too. Is this what you meant by it? Just curious.
    Yeah, I mean I love people. The problem is I'm rarely given a chance. As I've alluded to in other threads, I don't have a lot of curb appeal. It's not that I'm ugly, it's just that the best of me takes some time to uncover, being an introvert and strange and dark and bizarre and all. I can't let my true self surface much in public. So I have usually just stayed quiet and tried not to make any waves. Lately I'm undoing this, I'm saying to hell with worrying if I offend people, my voice deserves to be heard and they are overly sensitive, as I don't actually cause or intend harm.

    Maybe that's just a bunch of baloney, though.

    What were those efforts like?
    Trying to share my emotions and tell people how I feel. With those I was closest to, sharing my deeper insecurities.

    I scorn this sort of behavior now. It sickens me. My motto is "stay frosty." Never let that guard down. You think people will empathize with you and relate and share themselves too, but what really happens is they begin to look down on you and see you as pathetic. Which is fine, because I always felt awkward trying to do that shit anyway. I like keeping things to myself. It's just that sometimes people try to ask and try to get you to open up, and I thought I was giving them that. Now I don't fall for it.

    That's a source of some of my bitterness. I have this feeling of betrayal in me. I did what I thought I was supposed to do, I tried to connect and open up, and I was rejected. Spite... rage... that's what it feels like inside when I think about these things. Anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about either is lying or hasn't lived long enough to have had their heart crushed. And if God were real, that's who I would blame. 'Cause it ain't right. Life has its ups, but the downs are just a bunch of shit in your eye, and for no good reason. And I never asked for it. So I resent.

    And why wouldn't I? When I am innocently being myself, I am simply rejected, scorned. This is what happens to people, over and over again through time. Some people are in, some people are out, and for those people who are out, there really is little or no silver lining. Life is just harder, less enjoyable.

    But I think it's less now than it ever was, despite its long way to go. We live in the most accepting society ever. And yet, I am turned toward a future where we will be even more so, and my work is to bring it about.

  10. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Na, pretty sure she has about as much going on upstairs as a relatively smart bird.
    I was referring to her understanding of certain things that you do not understand. (Yep social crap)

    No, I don't understand some of it that much either. So I'm not being condescending here, just pointing out a fact


    Yeah, I mean I love people. The problem is I'm rarely given a chance. As I've alluded to in other threads, I don't have a lot of curb appeal. It's not that I'm ugly, it's just that the best of me takes some time to uncover, being an introvert and strange and dark and bizarre and all. I can't let my true self surface much in public. So I have usually just stayed quiet and tried not to make any waves. Lately I'm undoing this, I'm saying to hell with worrying if I offend people, my voice deserves to be heard and they are overly sensitive, as I don't actually cause or intend harm.

    Maybe that's just a bunch of baloney, though.
    Well I remember an ESFP once said that you should be yourself and you will be accepted. Said ESFP is pretty well accepted. But that's an ESFP, not an INTP/INTJ ;p Anyway this would still be good, first, why inhibit yourself, and you'll at least attract like-minded people or other people who like you the way you are. Well at least you give yourself the chance for that. If you can take a lot of rejection as well.

    I have another thought on this, if you sound offensive but for a good reason, that is, people can see you're not doing it out of totally selfish reasons then they'll more likely accept it. Well that girl on the dating site didn't, okay...


    Trying to share my emotions and tell people how I feel. With those I was closest to, sharing my deeper insecurities.

    I scorn this sort of behavior now. It sickens me. My motto is "stay frosty." Never let that guard down. You think people will empathize with you and relate and share themselves too, but what really happens is they begin to look down on you and see you as pathetic. Which is fine, because I always felt awkward trying to do that shit anyway. I like keeping things to myself. It's just that sometimes people try to ask and try to get you to open up, and I thought I was giving them that. Now I don't fall for it.
    I don't know what people you did it with... in close relationships? Really sucks then yeah


    That's a source of some of my bitterness. I have this feeling of betrayal in me. I did what I thought I was supposed to do, I tried to connect and open up, and I was rejected. Spite... rage... that's what it feels like inside when I think about these things. Anyone who doesn't know what I'm talking about either is lying or hasn't lived long enough to have had their heart crushed. And if God were real, that's who I would blame. 'Cause it ain't right. Life has its ups, but the downs are just a bunch of shit in your eye, and for no good reason. And I never asked for it. So I resent.

    And why wouldn't I? When I am innocently being myself, I am simply rejected, scorned. This is what happens to people, over and over again through time. Some people are in, some people are out, and for those people who are out, there really is little or no silver lining. Life is just harder, less enjoyable.
    I understand you. I was always seeing myself as an outcast. But it wasn't too hard as long as I didn't focus on connection with people. When I tried to focus on that, well I figured out fast that that wasn't a good idea


    But I think it's less now than it ever was, despite its long way to go. We live in the most accepting society ever. And yet, I am turned toward a future where we will be even more so, and my work is to bring it about.
    Nice goal there. Something to live for?

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