User Tag List

First 81617181920 Last

Results 171 to 180 of 257

  1. #171
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I share a lot of your frustrations. Your responses make me chuckle. Carry on, Zago. Hang in there. I'm not gonna say it will get better, because it won't, but ... hang in there.
    Thanks. I'm just waiting for the singularity. That's how I see my life right now. Hopefully it is a good singularity. I have to believe it will be. I mean I literally have to.

  2. #172
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    468 sx/sp
    Socionics
    EII None
    Posts
    4,383

    Default

    It's good to have hope and faith.

  3. #173
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Considering the replies aren't doing you any good, I'd suggest you to ask the mods to close the thread.

    Unless you are expecting apologies or something.
    Uhhhh.. I would really rather they just ban me so I don't even have the option of coming here anymore. Forget about this thread, I have given up hope for the forum in general. I don't care at all anymore. I plan on making a thread to declare open season on prplchknz pretty soon. Hopefully that gets me banned or something. If you are wondering, the 2 of us have an official policy that we must ignore each other, which she has violated 2 times now. I have reported both times but haven't heard anything or seen any result.

    Edit: action seems to have been taken (I think). Thanks.

  4. #174
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Seeing things from the other person's point of view is fine, as long as you can do it with reasonable accuracy. Given how often other people misread my POV, I hardly trust myself to return the favor, beyond the obvious.
    Accuracy is certainly important, especially in any kind of game matrix (negotiation, etc.) It's actually pretty hard to be inaccurate to the point of it being harmful in casual situations. The act itself acts as a break on entrenching ourselves in our POV. The hard part is getting over our own limitations - we dismiss, we refuse to relate, become defensive etc. All the things that destroy communication.

    Also known as "bringing up politics on a date".

    So, if I have no genuine interest in the other person, see no real reason for appreciation, and can find no context in which the person is particularly important, what do I do? Give up? Fake it until I make it?
    Have some appreciation for all people? All people contribute, or have something to contribute. I'm sure this will get rejected with reasonable logic, but it will always be premised on "not something I value". Well... I can't argue with that. I find it closed minded, but I can't really argue with "I just don't care about (certain) others".

    I know, I know. People are stupid/ignorant/etc. See: Dismissive.

    I have been on the receiving end of some of this stuff, and it makes me feel as though the other person doesn't have enough respect for me to level with me and tell it like it is. As if they feel I have to be flattered, coddled, and set up for whatever they really have to say. Granted, the title of the book specificies influencing "people", presumably people at large. Obviously many people fall for this stuff.
    "People", including you, do "fall" for this. It's like marketing in that regard - we all think we are immune to influence. The sample you know of are the ones you can identify. Find any good communicator that you like and they will be using the same tools. They probably just adapted to your communication style better.

    The ones you note are the ones who are not genuine/respectful and are putting a thin veneer on it.

    ---

    I should mention that my opinion is pretty broad but certainly not universal. Those that defect from decent human interaction don't get the benefit of the doubt. I don't put up with abusive people, for instance.

    But I don't respect people less because they aren't interested in the same things I am. Or because they aren't as knowledgeable or as capable. If they aren't into that interested in it, then I try to take the chance to learn something about what they are interested in. It's simple game theory matrix - mutual cooperation, where we both can converse, has the most enjoyment. Teaching or being taught is of similar value to me, and is the 2nd outcome I desire. Mutual defection has no value. I gain nothing by closing myself off.

  5. #175
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    17,597

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Good lord, did you read what I wrote at all? I even spelled out the exact answer to that question. I don't want advice, I didn't ask for advice. There are other ways to relate to people, do you realize that? I mean I can't make myself any clearer. Where did I imply advice was wanted? I realize people like giving it, but I don't want your opinions. I can think for myself.
    So what did you want, then? Sympathy? Commiseration? Others to share their stories of how disappointingly stupid people are? I can do all that, but I'm not sure the point. People also offer advice because they have had similar issues, and hope others might be able to learn from their experiences. Often what looks like advice is really just someone recounting a comparable experience, and how they dealt with it. Up to you and each reader to judge its utility to them.

    Facts are a good basis for advice or correction, but so are methods, logic, and consistency checks. One of my favorite methods of offering advice is to ask questions, or rather to suggest to the person questions to ask him/herself. You are right that "victim" is much too strong a word for your situation. I also take exception to the label "victim blaming" for every instance when someone suggests to another that they have some control over what happens to them. If your friend's car is stolen, and you tell him it was stupid to leave the door unlocked, this is simply pointing out obvious cause and effect relationships.

    So, if you are content with the nature of your interactions with people; or if you are not, but have determined that the cost of addressing it is not worth the benefits; then you have no need of advice, and apparently just want to vent or compare notes on the prevalence of stupidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    People don't like advice they didn't ask for though. They just don't. Period. Ya'll should know that.
    Now this much I know is false. I have benefitted from all sorts of unsolicited advice, from "try this - you might like it", to "I see a better way to do what you're doing", to "you know, have you tried considering that problem from this [new] perspective?" I don't always take the advice as stated, but oftentimes it gives me other ideas, or shows me something I had overlooked. Unsolicited advice can be like finding $20 in the street.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Considering the replies aren't doing you any good, I'd suggest you to ask the mods to close the thread.
    Public threads do not exist for the sole purpose of the OP, but rather for all the participants. Threads can take on a life of their own, for better or worse. (It's when they turn worse that mods tend to close them.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Also known as "bringing up politics on a date".
    Well, I wouldn't want to date someone who is unwilling to discuss politics, economics, religion, and a whole gamut of potentially thorny topics. For me, such discussions can be the highlight of an evening, and go far to show me whether the other person has potential as a romantic partner, or even as a friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Have some appreciation for all people? All people contribute, or have something to contribute. I'm sure this will get rejected with reasonable logic, but it will always be premised on "not something I value". Well... I can't argue with that. I find it closed minded, but I can't really argue with "I just don't care about (certain) others".

    I know, I know. People are stupid/ignorant/etc. See: Dismissive.
    I know that all people contribute and have value. All of them I'm sure also have something interesting to say, eventually. I know this because I have had interesting discussions in the most unexpected situations, when I was sure I would have nothing in common with someone. But that was luck. For me, it's not so much the subject but what they have to say about it that matters. In practice, it can take a long time to figure out what that is about someone, and in a social situation that is supposed to be fun, takes too much time and effort. So, I remain alert for it, but won't go digging. I also find it rather nosy to keep questioning someone on their life, trying to find something to talk about.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #176
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,913

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post

    What is the mystery here? Why are people so surprised at my negative reactions toward their advice?

    I know. Giving advice is easy. It confirms your worldview. It makes you feel important and knowledgeable. It reminds you that you are better than someone. Etc.

    People don't like advice they didn't ask for though. They just don't. Period. Ya'll should know that.
    In general, you're right.

    I agree with @Coriolis that it is often extremely beneficial but I think people usually don't like advice they didn't ask for.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post

    The problem with advice is the motivation behind it. Even though I did not even come close to hinting that I wanted advice in the OP, it seems like everyone wanted to give it. People like to give advice because it makes them feel superior. It is often condescending and lacks empathy, and it also puts the recipient on the defensive. Especially when there is clear negative judgment contained within it, which there obviously was most of the time in this thread.
    Those are good points. Advice can come across as condescending, patronizing, judgmental and lacking in empathy. It also puts the recipient on the defensive. These things are all very aptly demonstrated by my previous post and your reaction.

    I'd like to raise a question though. Do you agree it can be very difficult to guess another person's motivations? I could be misinterpreting things but the assumption you seem to be making is that the behavior (advice giving) is driven out of self interest. Regardless as to whether or not it is effective or wanted, I think most advice is well meaning. People generally like helping other people. It's human nature. People take a risk by being direct and offering suggestions to others - especially when they know there is a risk that it isn't going to be received well. This is especially true for those who don't like conflict. They are putting themselves "in harms way" so to speak. I'm not like that. I don't mind conflict. On the other hand, confrontation is a lifelong challenge for me. I try to be diplomatic because I have had plenty of experiences being direct and pissing people off, just like I did with you earlier in the thread. In other cases, I wish I confronted issues more strongly with others and hesitated to say what I thought for fear of offending people. It's hard to get it right. However, I strongly believe in much of what is in that book. It's not about manipulating people which suggests some kind of devious self interest or trickery as being the primary motivation. It's about getting along with them and developing positive relationships, which is to everyone's benefit. My dad actually told me to read it. He must have said it a couple dozen times, likely in situations where I was being generally obnoxious or demonstrating poor interpersonal skills. I didn't much want his advice but ultimately, I did cave in and read it (and multiple times thereafter) because I experienced enough pain to be motivated to do something different. There is another book that I read once that made an impact on my worldview - Tuesdays With Morrie. Am I recommending it because I want to feel superior? No. I'm recommending it because I think it's a good book and it helped me.

    I think what sometimes happens in these threads is that people try to help (with advice or thoughts or observations or whatever). Sometimes when that feedback doesn't appear to be heard or understood, people jump in and try harder to communicate the messages that appear to not be understood, becoming increasingly direct. An analogy would be something I see at work - if a person doesn't feel heard, they tend to repeat themselves over and over more emphatically, in different words, until they are acknowledged or ultimately get mad and walk away, not wanting to talk to that person anymore. I think we should watch this type of group behavior because it can feel like a "pile-on" by the recipient of the advice or suggestions.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  7. #177
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Posts
    4,474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Well, I wouldn't want to date someone who is unwilling to discuss politics, economics, religion, and a whole gamut of potentially thorny topics. For me, such discussions can be the highlight of an evening, and go far to show me whether the other person has potential as a romantic partner, or even as a friend.
    I'm not unwilling, and most aren't, but it is generally known that it's the top topic to avoid in social situations. It has little to do with what either one of you is interested in... it's a lot more about building the connection on safer topics. Yes, I know. Boring, stupid, etc.

    YMMV, of course. If it's a gamut of confrontational topics you want to run people through to weed them out, you just have to make sure you are applying the filter that works.

    I know that all people contribute and have value. All of them I'm sure also have something interesting to say, eventually. I know this because I have had interesting discussions in the most unexpected situations, when I was sure I would have nothing in common with someone. But that was luck. For me, it's not so much the subject but what they have to say about it that matters. In practice, it can take a long time to figure out what that is about someone, and in a social situation that is supposed to be fun, takes too much time and effort. So, I remain alert for it, but won't go digging. I also find it rather nosy to keep questioning someone on their life, trying to find something to talk about.
    Your statement doesn't ring true when you describe interacting with people as "too much time and effort", "eventually" and "won't go digging". I understand it, but it is still dismissive.

  8. #178
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    So what did you want, then?
    To entertain myself and others. This OP is just the kind of thing that I like to read. It's down to Earth. It's got personality. It's refreshingly sacrilegious. It is meant to be related to. Aren't we all fed up with stupid people? Isn't their stupidity actually kind of comical and ripe for the picking? I'm making fun of them, I'm making fun of the world, I'm making fun of life, and I'm making fun of myself. I'm even making fun of this forum, when I talk about "the feminist attack brigade." It's because I see that as a thing. It's a goofy, predictable little phenomenon. It's a dig at people who take things too seriously, but apparently this forum is only populated by that kind of people. I thought some people would get the joke. I even joked when I got fed up:

    Hi I'm zago, and your guys' advice has never occurred to me! WHAT'S THAT YOU SAY? I SHOULD TRY TO BE MORE CHARMING? WHAT??? WHO ARE YOU GENIUSES, WHERE DID YOU COME FROM? I COULD HAVE NEVER IMAGINED IN ALL MY TIME............. I'LL BE DARNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    TYPO-C, YOU HAVE CHANGED MY LIFE. THANK YOU FOR YOUR AMAZING ADVICE. I WILL GO OFF INTO THE WORLD AND LIVE FRUITFULLY NOW!

    1/27/14 NEVAR FORGET
    I just wish people got it. That shit is funny. I am laughing right now even. I like being a character. That's all I can say.

    I thought there'd be people who knew what I was talking about, on all or some fronts, but what I get is engagement on a level I hadn't even intended on at all. I'm being given advice on something I don't even have a problem with. It's like... the title of this thread... that's a joke. Can't people see that I made light of this whole ordeal? When this girl replied to me, what did I do? I found a way to make it funny by posting this thread. I thought it was clearly humorous. I mean obviously. Anyone with a sense of humor should be able to see that.

    When Louis CK gets on stage and talks about how much he hates things, how stupid people are, and how miserable his life is, people laugh and find it funny. It obviously is funny. He takes himself lightly, even though he does seem on the surface to be grumpy and annoyed. People don't get all serious-eyed and start thinking of tips and advice to give him. Ya know? People need to come down to Earth a little. Life is stupid sometimes. It's stupid a lot of the time, and people with a sense of humor aren't above lampooning it and expressing their disgust. The really annoying thing is all the ones who hear it and don't see it in themselves at all and spout self-help bullshit because they haven't realized it is a load of shit yet.

    LIFE IS STUPID AND FRUSTRATING. People are dicks. Relationships suck. Businesses suck. The government sucks. Dating sucks. ETC. The only way you can make light of these annoyances sometimes is to desecrate it and throw muck in its face. The person who is above it all is an asshole who no one likes. If you live a stress free life and take everything in stride and cope with everything without ever getting angry, F you. You just think you're better than everyone else. Simple as that.

    It's like if you watched Bill Hicks' act and came up to him after the show and tried to give him a copy of HTWFAIP. You missed the point.

    If you tried to give me advice in this thread, you are totally missing the point. It was 95% humor, 5% a point about how I think people need to value knowledge a little more. In what universe does anyone seriously say "I only get boners for scorpios"? What serious thread literally ends with the word "END"? The whole thing is straight up humor... obviously. If you couldn't tell, it may be time to sit down and have a talk with yourself: do you take yourself too seriously? Have you lost your sense of humor? Questions like that.

    BAD.

  9. #179
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    MBTI
    INTP
    Posts
    1,171

    Default

    Hey zago, here's some advice. When something stupid happens to you, turn it into something funny. That makes you reali--

    OH WAIT

  10. #180
    You have a choice! 21%'s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    4w5
    Posts
    2,632

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I'm not sure how you don't see that this falls into the same pattern as all advice I have previously talked about in this thread. It lacks empathy, it assumes I haven't thought of this already (which is absurd), and it conveys a sense of superiority.

    You inexplicably refuse to believe that I have tried everything I could. You put me in your shoes, and say "well I myself don't have a problem so there must be something wrong with the way he sees things." Maybe we are just different - consider that. Maybe you have an easier time than me.

    For the record, no one can fully get over themselves. If life started giving you impossible and unfair problems, you would eventually freak out and break down too. Trust me. No one has infinite will power. And that's what people fail to realize - everyone else is trying. It is very easy for people like you to just assume anyone with problems must not be trying like you. But they are. The world doesn't deal everyone an equal hand. We all want to be happy and get along with people, and that's what we try to do.

    I resent your advice. It has lowered my opinion of you.
    To be honest I was expecting this kind of response. I'm sorry if you feel I was trying to sound superior or saying you are not already trying your best. I knew what I said was harsh, and I really thought about it hard whether I was really going to post it. It's not something I would say to just any person asking for random advice. But you seem to be stuck in this extreme negative loop for months now, so I thought why not.

    I'll tell you that I reacted the same way when I first saw the "get over yourself" comment. I thought it was incredibly heartless. But, it stuck with me for some reason, and one day, after I had spent months thinking "Oh, why is this happening to me?" and crying alone in the dark it finally came to me. I felt I had suffered enough, and I needed a way out -- and that was the way.

    I'm not trying to maintain your good opinion. If I had wanted it I would have agreed with you and said things you wanted to hear. I don't think anyone here stands to gain anything from offering advice, and I don't think people are acting out of self-interest. I think people sensed that you were deeply frustrated, even when you made light the experience, and tried to help.

    If you only wanted hugs you should have said so
    4w5 sp/sx EII

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 10
    Last Post: 03-20-2014, 01:28 PM
  2. Replies: 55
    Last Post: 08-17-2013, 12:20 AM
  3. Identical Types Amongst Siblings and/or Offspring?
    By FrisbeeLad in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 92
    Last Post: 04-02-2009, 07:30 PM
  4. Request: Pictures of Seattle and/or surrounding areas
    By swordpath in forum Home, Garden and Nature
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 01-16-2009, 05:35 AM
  5. Why I am here
    By HilbertSpace in forum Welcomes and Introductions
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 04-25-2007, 01:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO