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  1. #111
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    We simply disagree then. The story of life itself, to me, is becoming who one is. It's like everyone follows this same pattern in their life, but in some it is more visible than others. I have 1 friend (and I know of others who have also) who is bi/gay, but he got married and even had a couple kids, all the while trying to be his vision of what he was supposed to be. In the end his marriage fell apart and he gave up and just decided to face the world as a gay person, which is what he had been running from all along. Now, that doesn't mean that the world suddenly became perfect. We still lack consciousness of the issue, as the news has shown us in the last couple of months. I'm talking about Duck Dynasty. Also a separate discussion.
    Again, these are arguments I have made myself. I, too, see only harm in trying to be something I am not. The trick then becomes how to address one's weaknesses when they are causing you problems, but in a way that remains true to yourself. This implies: (1) if a deficiency is not causing problems in your life, it is not a priority to address, at least not now: and (2) you need to understand yourself well enough to recognize your true nature.

    You write about your gay friend that his vision of himself included having a traditional marriage and family. This is contrary to (2). Now 100 years ago, (1) would have been a much bigger factor, in that being gay was still illegal in many places, and living openly as his real self would have come with considerable risk. (This shows where the analogy breaks down, though, since being gay is no more a deficiency than being redhead or black. It has been made artificially so in our society only because of externally imposed difficulties.) Nonetheless, the gay person 100 years ago would still have had to find a way to deal with the limitations of his day. Trying to make a go of traditional marriage was one way, with the results you describe. Living as openly gay would avoid this problem, but invite persecution. Finding an honest middle ground was difficult, as it can be for modern people with personality deficiencies like many INTs have (myself included).

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    In my own way, I am addressing the problem. I'm addressing it by making the point I made in this thread. I'm here, I'm equal, know me, respect me. Whereas once it was assumed that someone was being a jerk, now perhaps it is not, now perhaps we see that person as just being who he is, not intending harm. I know it is hard to accommodate that and I am asking people to make an effort to see that, but it's something people have survived many times before (adjusting to accommodate a previously unrecognized perspective, that is).
    This is legitimate and important. Energy put into trying to work against your own nature is just a waste. Moreover, if you are finding you do not experience problems in life due to personality weaknesses, by (1) above, there is nothing you need to do. If you encounter problems that may be related, however, for a fraction of the energy you were expending before, you can probably find a workaround that addresses the problem while remaining true to yourself. It's cost-benefit, like many other things in life.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #112
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    @Coriolis Yeah we really don't disagree much. Clarification is always good.

  3. #113
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Oh dear, @OrangeAppled. I don't think he's enjoying your gift of knowledge.

    I hope you kept the receipt.
    It was not a gift of knowledge to the OP. It was a "gift" of thanks to the poster I quoted & was addressing.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  4. #114
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I like that movie a lot.

    But ironically, if you look at how Bob acted, well, I don't think he would have sent that same message that you did on that dating site. If you are honest, he would have said something non-critical and inclusive. Note his style of interaction -- it was open, embracing, and receptive. That is why people liked him, despite his eccentricities. Dr. Marvin was far more critical and expecting people to fall into his line of thinking, and he's the one who was rejected.
    I missed this reply. The thing about Bob is that he isn't an INTP (nor a real person at all....). I'm not at all saying my personality is similar to Bob's. If it is similar to anyone's it could perhaps be Sheldon Cooper, but I am not that eccentric. I find Sheldon just as lovable as Bob, personally. Sheldon may have a sharp tongue, but he isn't spiteful. He just values accuracy. But this is all beside the point. The point was that there are people trying to tell me who I am and trying to scold me and make me feel like I'm a bad person, and they simply are failing to listen to me or acknowledge what I am trying to say.

  5. #115
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I think I'm going crazy. I need a lobotomy or something. Can we get a fund going?
    You don't need money. Who's got a nail and a ball pein hammer? We can take care of this licky-split .

    I jest of course.

    I can relate to you on some levels. I have experienced the same kind of "how can someone be that dumb?!" on the okcupid response section. Honestly? I have learned to just ignore it. I'm a scientist, and I have to constantly remind myself that not everyone has a basic science background. It seems completely trivial but it's how it is. There are some people who genuinely do not know that the sun is larger than the earth because they haven't had astronomy since 3rd grade.

    Ultimately do these questions matter that much? Not really. It's a drop in the bucket for their entire makeup. If a lot of them show up then yeah there is reason to be concerned, but it's just wasted energy to fret over something like this. Stupid people exist, and there just isn't anyway to make them go away or not be stupid. Er, I shouldn't say stupid, uneducated might be better, or perhaps willful ignorance.

    Whenever I butt heads with someone I just write it off as an incompatibility and move on most of the time. No use in getting worked up over something small.

  6. #116
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hard View Post
    You don't need money. Who's got a nail and a ball pein hammer? We can take care of this licky-split .

    I jest of course.

    I can relate to you on some levels. I have experienced the same kind of "how can someone be that dumb?!" on the okcupid response section. Honestly? I have learned to just ignore it. I'm a scientist, and I have to constantly remind myself that not everyone has a basic science background. It seems completely trivial but it's how it is. There are some people who genuinely do not know that the sun is larger than the earth because they haven't had astronomy since 3rd grade.

    Ultimately do these questions matter that much? Not really. It's a drop in the bucket for their entire makeup. If a lot of them show up then yeah there is reason to be concerned, but it's just wasted energy to fret over something like this. Stupid people exist, and there just isn't anyway to make them go away or not be stupid. Er, I shouldn't say stupid, uneducated might be better, or perhaps willful ignorance.

    Whenever I butt heads with someone I just write it off as an incompatibility and move on most of the time. No use in getting worked up over something small.
    Irrationality has actually begun to cause me significant psychological distress. Certain things just depress me. For instance, I read some of the bible last week, on a whim. After I finished the portion I had chosen to read, I was full of anger and frustration. It haunted me the next day as well.

    Which is to say, I think these things are important, do matter. They matter to me and they matter to the world. Education has brought about everything good in this world. We need to know who and what we are, not just make stuff up and not care. Ignorance leads to cruelty, waste, accidents, manipulation, stagnation and decay, etc. Bad things.

    Education is my passion, I guess you could say. I can't passively accept the ignorant part of the world as it is. I'll do whatever I can to spread my memes and help fix the problem.

  7. #117
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Irrationality has actually begun to cause me significant psychological distress. Certain things just depress me. For instance, I read some of the bible last week, on a whim. After I finished the portion I had chosen to read, I was full of anger and frustration. It haunted me the next day as well.

    Which is to say, I think these things are important, do matter. They matter to me and they matter to the world. Education has brought about everything good in this world. We need to know who and what we are, not just make stuff up and not care. Ignorance leads to cruelty, waste, accidents, manipulation, stagnation and decay, etc. Bad things.

    Education is my passion, I guess you could say. I can't passively accept the ignorant part of the world as it is. I'll do whatever I can to spread my memes and help fix the problem.
    This is something you'll have to address then, and you're aware of it. I am not sure how you feel about therapy with a psychologist but it's something to consider. I am a huge advocate of them. Of course, you need to find a good one but they are there.

    I can relate though. I used to have massive problems with not being able to let go of thoughts that just dwelled on my mind endlessly. I could not shake them no matter how much I tried. If I did manage to, a lot of the time the emotional aspect of it would still fire even though I got rid of the cognitive problems, and thus the ability to remove the feeling with thoughts was now completely gone. It's a whole pile of fuckary. I wish I could explain to you how I began to resolve this problem, but a big thing I started doing was just completely burying my head in the sand. Numbing myself, focusing on very simple things. When I was in a really depressed state as a result of this kind of stuff I would lie in bed and watch episodes of teletubbies. Yep. It was so simplistic and childish it was actually comforting. The worst thing that happened is that their toast fell on the ground, or nu-nu had his hose-nose clocked and made extra slurpy noises. The sheer simplicity somehow taught me to let go. Don't get me wrong, these problems still crop up every now and again, but with much less force and I can manage it, knowing that it will eventually pass.

    Being aware of the entire state of the world is painful. Really really painful. I remember a few years back I was a mess for a good week because I focused on the depletion of rare metals from the earth. They're essential to modern life, a finite resource that is not renewable, and we are in no way prepared to deal with the fall out. It was depressing. Everything just felt pointless because at the end of the day, everything was for naught anyway. But the thing is, I couldn't do anything about it, and me lying there in mental pain was preventing me from doing anything that could be beneficial to the world.

    What you need to do is learn to take the things that do plauge you, and ask yourself "can I do something about this?", if you can, try. With practice you'll learn how to do it well and have an impact. If you can't do anything, let it go. Someone else out there will be able to address the problem. None of us are superheros and we can't do it all. Being hyper-aware of all that ills the world doesn't do a lick of good for anyone.

    I can also relate to your drive for education. My goal is to become a college professor.

  8. #118
    I could do things Hard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Irrationality has actually begun to cause me significant psychological distress. Certain things just depress me. For instance, I read some of the bible last week, on a whim. After I finished the portion I had chosen to read, I was full of anger and frustration. It haunted me the next day as well.

    Which is to say, I think these things are important, do matter. They matter to me and they matter to the world. Education has brought about everything good in this world. We need to know who and what we are, not just make stuff up and not care. Ignorance leads to cruelty, waste, accidents, manipulation, stagnation and decay, etc. Bad things.

    Education is my passion, I guess you could say. I can't passively accept the ignorant part of the world as it is. I'll do whatever I can to spread my memes and help fix the problem.
    This is something you'll have to address then, and you're aware of it. I am not sure how you feel about therapy with a psychologist but it's something to consider. I am a huge advocate of them. Of course, you need to find a good one but they are there.

    I can relate though. I used to have massive problems with not being able to let go of thoughts that just dwelled on my mind endlessly. I could not shake them no matter how much I tried. If I did manage to, a lot of the time the emotional aspect of it would still fire even though I got rid of the cognitive problems, and thus the ability to remove the feeling with thoughts was now completely gone. It's a whole pile of fuckary. I wish I could explain to you how I began to resolve this problem, but a big thing I started doing was just completely burying my head in the sand. Numbing myself, focusing on very simple things. When I was in a really depressed state as a result of this kind of stuff I would lie in bed and watch episodes of teletubbies. Yep. It was so simplistic and childish it was actually comforting. The worst thing that happened is that their toast fell on the ground, or nu-nu had his hose-nose clocked and made extra slurpy noises. The sheer simplicity somehow taught me to let go. Don't get me wrong, these problems still crop up every now and again, but with much less force and I can manage it, knowing that it will eventually pass.

    Being aware of the entire state of the world is painful. Really really painful. I remember a few years back I was a mess for a good week because I focused on the depletion of rare metals from the earth. They're essential to modern life, a finite resource that is not renewable, and we are in no way prepared to deal with the fall out. It was depressing. Everything just felt pointless because at the end of the day, everything was for naught anyway. But the thing is, I couldn't do anything about it, and me lying there in mental pain was preventing me from doing anything that could be beneficial to the world.

    What you need to do is learn to take the things that do plauge you, and ask yourself "can I do something about this?", if you can, try. With practice you'll learn how to do it well and have an impact. If you can't do anything, let it go. Someone else out there will be able to address the problem. None of us are superheros and we can't do it all. Being hyper-aware of all that ills the world doesn't do a lick of good for anyone.

    I can also relate to your drive for education. My goal is to become a college professor.

  9. #119
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    If we don't care to adjust our behavior to elicit the kind of response we want to get from others, then we we can expect to get responses that we don't like. There is a great deal of good feedback in the thread @zago. Maybe I'm wrong but it doesn't come across like you are listening very well. If you enjoy being bitter and cynical on the other hand then that's your perogative.

    Bolded items seem relevant to the topic at hand. From here.

    Fundamental Techniques in Handling People
    Don't criticize, condemn, or complain.
    Give honest and sincere appreciation.
    Arouse in the other person an eager want.

    Six Ways to Make People Like You
    Become genuinely interested in other people.
    Smile.
    Remember that a person's name is, to that person, the sweetest and most important sound in any language.
    Be a good listener. Encourage others to talk about themselves.
    Talk in terms of the other person's interest.
    Make the other person feel important – and do it sincerely.

    Twelve Ways to Win People to Your Way of Thinking
    The only way to get the best of an argument is to avoid it.
    Show respect for the other person's opinions. Never say "You're Wrong."
    If you're wrong, admit it quickly and emphatically.
    Begin in a friendly way.
    Start with questions to which the other person will answer yes.
    Let the other person do a great deal of the talking.
    Let the other person feel the idea is his or hers.
    Try honestly to see things from the other person's point of view.
    Be sympathetic with the other person's ideas and desires.
    Appeal to the nobler motives.
    Dramatize your ideas.
    Throw down a challenge.

    Be a Leader: How to Change People Without Giving Offense or Arousing Resentment
    Begin with praise and honest appreciation.
    Call attention to people's mistakes indirectly.
    Talk about your own mistakes before criticizing the other person.

    Ask questions instead of giving direct orders.
    Let the other person save face.
    Praise every improvement.
    Give the other person a fine reputation to live up to.
    Use encouragement. Make the fault seem easy to correct.
    Make the other person happy about doing what you suggest.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  10. #120
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    People are going to hear what they are ready to hear...
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

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