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  1. #101
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chana View Post
    I like the INTP women here though
    And I'm dating an ISTP and he's definitely not as Fe-deficient as this.
    I am an extreme example of an INTP. Being Fe-deficient isn't a bad thing per se, just an aspect of my personality which I don't deserve to be judged for. You'll notice that while I was cold and logical all this time, I never descended to the level of name-calling, which someone who has dominant (well, auxiliary) Fe did do. I did freak out a little on one person, but the freak out itself was still rational. I might have been 'yelling,' but perhaps that can be forgiven. Never said I'm perfect. Overall I had a great deal of fun in this thread and found it challenging and stimulating, much like some other type would enjoy partaking in an MMA fight (an ESTP, perhaps).

  2. #102
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Do you truly believe that people out there, yourself included, are really correcting someone to increase the other person's utility? I wouldn't say it's even in the top 5 of motivations, even if it does exist as anything more than a rationalization.
    Speaking specifically about myself now, my main motivation in these cases is simply that what the person said was wrong, and I know better. By extension, then, I know I can and feel I should set the record straight. It is the same reasoning and motivation I have when I put litter into a trashcan, or even call out to the shopper ahead of me at the grocery store that she has left her gloves at the checkout. Yes, being helpful is indeed secondary to the impulse simply to correct the problem or mistake. Earning someone's goodwill is not on the radar, much less establishing any sort of relationship.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I am an extreme example of an INTP. Being Fe-deficient isn't a bad thing per se, just an aspect of my personality which I don't deserve to be judged for.
    I agree with most everything you have written on this thread, except for this. Everyone has some type/functional deficiency, which is another way of saying we all have weaknesses as well as strengths. While it not may make sense to blame us for these weaknesses, we certainly are responsible for how we address them, or fail to do so. We don't blame a deaf person for being deaf, but if they refuse to learn sign language or lip reading or some means of communicating, it is fair to view this as an unwise and self-limiting choice.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #103
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I agree with most everything you have written on this thread, except for this. Everyone has some type/functional deficiency, which is another way of saying we all have weaknesses as well as strengths. While it not may make sense to blame us for these weaknesses, we certainly are responsible for how we address them, or fail to do so. We don't blame a deaf person for being deaf, but if they refuse to learn sign language or lip reading or some means of communicating, it is fair to view this as an unwise and self-limiting choice.
    I think those are apples and oranges. Functions are preferences, not strengths and weaknesses. How mature or immature a person is does not relate to their type. Ergo, an Fe-dominant can be an asshole, and a Ti-dominant can be kind. An Fe-dominant can be right, and a Ti-dominant can be wrong. These are neutral ways of communicating, rather than strengths and weaknesses.

    In other words, it's not that I use Fe poorly, it's that I don't use it much at all, but for what little I've had to, I think I did an OK job. I think if I had to use it more I would begin to use it poorly, but this is why I pick interests that don't particularly rely on it. I'm not cut out to host parties like an ESFJ isn't cut out to be a theoretical physicist (please, no one bring up exceptions here, I know there are exceptions to all rules). That's just not how those respective minds work.

    So, yes, low Fe is part of my personality profile, and indeed Myers-Briggs is a neutral system. It does not lift one type above another. It does often address what problems each type runs into, but it never says the goal for all types is to approach XXXX (perfect balance in all functions). My low Fe use is merely an indication of what my interests are.

    It's like in your example, what if the deaf person was also cognitively disabled and couldn't be expected to learn how to talk. In the same sense, I am Fe-disabled, or at least "challenged". I don't see that as a bad thing just like I don't see cognitive disability as a bad thing. It's just who someone is.

  4. #104
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    It's like in your example, what if the deaf person was also cognitively disabled and couldn't be expected to learn how to talk. In the same sense, I am Fe-disabled, or at least "challenged". I don't see that as a bad thing just like I don't see cognitive disability as a bad thing. It's just who someone is.
    You are changing my example, but it doesn't matter. Either someone makes the most of what they have, or they do not. The problem is less in the inherent limitation than in their response to it. People will quite readily say, "I can't do this because of X deficiency" when what they really mean is "I can't do this because I haven't bothered to address X deficiency". That is the difference, and it can be huge.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #105
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are changing my example, but it doesn't matter. Either someone makes the most of what they have, or they do not. The problem is less in the inherent limitation than in their response to it. People will quite readily say, "I can't do this because of X deficiency" when what they really mean is "I can't do this because I haven't bothered to address X deficiency". That is the difference, and it can be huge.
    yes, for example I don't really always act appropriately in situations, and lot of times I don't know how to, and as a result I sometimes piss people off, now I don't say I'm not jerk because I didn't know. I accept I'm a jerk. I'll talk to a good friend who knows me, and get feedback and hopefully not make the same mistake again. of course I'll ask why people behave the way they do, like there's some logical explanation (which people keep telling me people are irrational, but I want to know why, what was their motive). I could easily go well, I'm like this and I'm not going to change they should change. But it's way easier to change yourself than to change someone else.

    I don't know why I said this, but perhaps he'll look at the message. though I suspect once he reads it he'll be upset with me and think I'm attacking him, which I'm not. so I'm going to leave it, and expect the worst.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #106
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    I would say that a useful approach is to treat emotions and feelings as problems to be studied. If you do this, you can start to observe certain patterns. Once you do this, you can start to have more control over them. I am not implying that I have achieved perfection or have had it all figured out, merely that I think I have made a great deal of progress.

    Meditation or CBT can help. Sometimes a pissy mood can be caused by nothing more than being too lazy to make food. Which reminds me...
    [Trump's] rhetoric is not an abuse of power. In the same way that it's also not against the law to do a backflip off of the roof of your house onto your concrete driveway. It's just mind-numbingly stupid and, to say the least, counterproductive. - Bush did 9-11


    This is not going to go the way you think....

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    http://kevan.org/johari?name=Birddude78

  7. #107
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    You are changing my example, but it doesn't matter. Either someone makes the most of what they have, or they do not. The problem is less in the inherent limitation than in their response to it. People will quite readily say, "I can't do this because of X deficiency" when what they really mean is "I can't do this because I haven't bothered to address X deficiency". That is the difference, and it can be huge.
    Could Einstein have been as good a basketball player as Michael Jordan? Could Jordan have been the physicist Einstein was, if he had just addressed the deficiency?

    We only have so much time and energy, but beyond that we are born with certain talents and without others. It's a given that I and others do what they can. I'm certainly not against making an effort where one notices it is possible to make a cheap effort. But there is a certain economy to be mindful of with one's efforts. Perfectionism is paralysis.

    With the message I sent, for instance, I realize I didn't show much Fe preference, but it really didn't even occur to me to. If I had spent a lot more time on it maybe I would have, but I didn't spend that much time on it because I didn't really know much about the girl, and I wasn't simply dying to get her at the expense of all else. For the most part people just have to go with the flow of who they are. To expend lots of effort trying to change or compensate diminishes the energy that they can put into what they are actually good at.

    So I was myself, and in another life maybe I could have put more effort into the Fe aspect of the message and maybe it would have been better for that effort, but it still could have been rejected all the same. I don't truly know what anyone wants but me, so it isn't necessary that I go too far out on a limb with that sort of thing. If she doesn't fancy me, that's fine. Now, what I could have done without was her condemning me for correcting a woman.

  8. #108
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    yes, for example I don't really always act appropriately in situations, and lot of times I don't know how to, and as a result I sometimes piss people off, now I don't say I'm not jerk because I didn't know. I accept I'm a jerk. I'll talk to a good friend who knows me, and get feedback and hopefully not make the same mistake again. of course I'll ask why people behave the way they do, like there's some logical explanation (which people keep telling me people are irrational, but I want to know why, what was their motive). I could easily go well, I'm like this and I'm not going to change they should change. But it's way easier to change yourself than to change someone else.
    This is exactly what I am talking about. (And I can't imagine you really being a jerk. I suppose you might feel you acted like one now and then, but that is entirely different.)

    Quote Originally Posted by msg_v2 View Post
    I would say that a useful approach is to treat emotions and feelings as problems to be studied. If you do this, you can start to observe certain patterns. Once you do this, you can start to have more control over them. I am not implying that I have achieved perfection or have had it all figured out, merely that I think I have made a great deal of progress.
    I tend to treat emotions as data points, input to the decision-making process, along with facts, experiences, insights, and other sorts of information.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    Could Einstein have been as good a basketball player as Michael Jordan? Could Jordan have been the physicist Einstein was, if he had just addressed the deficiency?
    Again, you are looking at extremes. In the more general case, a scientist who is reasonably healthy and fit will likely live longer and be more productive, while an athlete who develops other abilities will have something ready to fall back on when he retires from the sport or must end his career due to injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    We only have so much time and energy, but beyond that we are born with certain talents and without others. It's a given that I and others do what they can. I'm certainly not against making an effort where one notices it is possible to make a cheap effort. But there is a certain economy to be mindful of with one's efforts.
    This is an argument I often make myself. The difference is that in forgoing the development of certain deficiencies, I am making the conscious choice also to forgo what that development might bring me. (This analysis presumes I know what I am missing, which is not at all certain, but is a separate question.) This is the main reason I see nothing wrong with what you wrote on the dating site. You were not trying to interest the woman in a relationship. I do not agree, however, with the blanket practice of excusing whatever problems we do have in life by attributing them to some inherent deficiency. If something is indeed a problem for us, then we do have some stake in it, and need to address it rather than make excuses.

    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    So I was myself, and in another life maybe I could have put more effort into the Fe aspect of the message and maybe it would have been better for that effort, but it still could have been rejected all the same. I don't truly know what anyone wants but me, so it isn't necessary that I go too far out on a limb with that sort of thing. If she doesn't fancy me, that's fine. Now, what I could have done without was her condemning me for correcting a woman.
    Really? That kind of condemnation wouldn't bother me at all, because I wouldn't care about her opinion of me at all. I would be offering the correction in a "take it or leave it" manner, with no stake whatsoever in her response. More broadly, however, I don't undertake any self-development in order to avoid rejection or gain acceptance from others. I do it because I think it will help be be more like I want to be, and reach more of my goals.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #109
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Again, you are looking at extremes. In the more general case, a scientist who is reasonably healthy and fit will likely live longer and be more productive, while an athlete who develops other abilities will have something ready to fall back on when he retires from the sport or must end his career due to injury.
    I was going more for well known examples. There are plenty of non-famous INTPs who probably out-INTP Einstein. I'm not trying to say we should be 1 sided by any stretch of the imagination. I put a lot of effort into my physical fitness and I have other hobbies like playing guitar and such. It's like there is a spectrum of how doable I find things. On the bottom of the list would be something like "going to a baby shower." Even if it were slightly rude not to go, I simply don't think I'd be able to stand it. I would probably shut down once I got there and wind up bringing the whole thing down a little. I'm like that at dances and weddings too. For a long time I tried going to them and being like others, but I have limits.

    This is an argument I often make myself. The difference is that in forgoing the development of certain deficiencies, I am making the conscious choice also to forgo what that development might bring me. (This analysis presumes I know what I am missing, which is not at all certain, but is a separate question.) This is the main reason I see nothing wrong with what you wrote on the dating site. You were not trying to interest the woman in a relationship. I do not agree, however, with the blanket practice of excusing whatever problems we do have in life by attributing them to some inherent deficiency. If something is indeed a problem for us, then we do have some stake in it, and need to address it rather than make excuses.
    We simply disagree then. The story of life itself, to me, is becoming who one is. It's like everyone follows this same pattern in their life, but in some it is more visible than others. I have 1 friend (and I know of others who have also) who is bi/gay, but he got married and even had a couple kids, all the while trying to be his vision of what he was supposed to be. In the end his marriage fell apart and he gave up and just decided to face the world as a gay person, which is what he had been running from all along. Now, that doesn't mean that the world suddenly became perfect. We still lack consciousness of the issue, as the news has shown us in the last couple of months. I'm talking about Duck Dynasty. Also a separate discussion.

    In the same way, I am giving up. It's not just an excuse. I have limits to how hard I can try. Yes, I am happier now that I have taken this pressure off myself, but I also see the world for what it is - not exactly the friendliest place for me. Few people relate to my nature. I might have mild autism, I really don't know, but whatever its called doesn't matter, it simply is what it is, and it's not something I should be judged for. If anyone has tried in this world, it is me. I tried so hard I broke. Then again I know the same thing has happened to many.

    In my own way, I am addressing the problem. I'm addressing it by making the point I made in this thread. I'm here, I'm equal, know me, respect me. Whereas once it was assumed that someone was being a jerk, now perhaps it is not, now perhaps we see that person as just being who he is, not intending harm. I know it is hard to accommodate that and I am asking people to make an effort to see that, but it's something people have survived many times before (adjusting to accommodate a previously unrecognized perspective, that is).

    Really? That kind of condemnation wouldn't bother me at all, because I wouldn't care about her opinion of me at all. I would be offering the correction in a "take it or leave it" manner, with no stake whatsoever in her response. More broadly, however, I don't undertake any self-development in order to avoid rejection or gain acceptance from others. I do it because I think it will help be be more like I want to be, and reach more of my goals.
    I don't particularly care about this 1 person, but I see this as a bigger pattern. Often times in my life when I was trying to be helpful and informative, all the sudden the person I was talking to judged me and I was either abandoned or insulted. For a long time I didn't understand it. Once I remember talking to a distant aunt and realizing she liked astrology. I didn't believe in it, but I knew some stuff about it, so I asked her if she knew her subsign or whatever (can't remember the details) and she gave me this odd look and the conversation ended.

    Months later I realized this, and I remember the incident because it was the first time I did realize what actually happened. For all that time, I had just thought that she was "being a bitch." I couldn't understand. But a friend of mine made me see that I had simply thought about that topic whereas to her it was only an emotional indulgence.

    She has the luxury of being what people consider normal. I, on the other hand, was usually not the normal one. I have always hung out with other outcasts like myself. It's taken me so long to understand everything. Now that I feel more comfortable being myself, the roles may sometimes be reversed. People may think that I am "being a dick" when I really have no such intention. I want to explain to people like chana, that's not what I'm doing. I'm not being spiteful or trying to hurt people. This is just who I am, what I think about.

    The thread is a commentary on how dimly recognized all of this is in society, and my reaction to it. It is meant to be humorous, for sure, but there is truth to it. I'm not an unhappy person, for now anyway. I might be once I run out of money and have to get a job I'm sure I'll hate. But maybe I'll find something that I can tolerate.

  10. #110
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Speaking specifically about myself now, my main motivation in these cases is simply that what the person said was wrong, and I know better. By extension, then, I know I can and feel I should set the record straight. It is the same reasoning and motivation I have when I put litter into a trashcan, or even call out to the shopper ahead of me at the grocery store that she has left her gloves at the checkout. Yes, being helpful is indeed secondary to the impulse simply to correct the problem or mistake. Earning someone's goodwill is not on the radar, much less establishing any sort of relationship.
    I think I'm similar in this as well. Also because if I get a fact wrong, I'd want someone to correct me or at least let me be like no you're wrong, go look it up and look for proof on how I'm right, if I can't find proof or if there's more proof that they're right then I'll accept that I am wrong. if that makes sense.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

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