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  1. #51
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    This is a North-American-centric thread, I presume, as there is a lot of the world where tipping is optional, not done, or considered insulting!

    Tip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  2. #52
    Senior Member Jive A Turkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    But if they paid their servers more, their prices would be higher, so customers would still pay.
    You're damned right. All of the business would be right there on the table for everyone to see. Higher price would be a small price to pay for superb quality of service.

  3. #53
    Senior Member Jive A Turkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    This is a North-American-centric thread, I presume, as there is a lot of the world where tipping is optional, not done, or considered insulting!

    Tip - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I declare Geoff and his constituency also damned right.
    Tipping is insulting to both the host and the guest.

  4. #54
    No me digas, che! Recoleta's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jive A Turkey View Post
    You're damned right. All of the business would be right there on the table for everyone to see. Higher price would be a small price to pay for superb quality of service.
    This would only work in an ideal world though and/or for people that really love to wait tables. Seriously, If I knew that no matter what I would be going home with 20% of the bill in my pocket my motivation to give superb service has just been eliminated.

  5. #55
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    This would only work in an ideal world though and/or for people that really love to wait tables. Seriously, If I knew that no matter what I would be going home with 20% of the bill in my pocket my motivation to give superb service has just been eliminated.
    That's because you live in a capitalist society that in effect creates a mercenary culture. So, in France, for example where tipping is not expected, it is normal to have great quality food (because they pride themselves in it, tip or no tip) and with rude, slightly surly, waiters. It's difficult to define why this works, it is just... culturally different to the US.

  6. #56
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    On the relatively rare occasions that I go somewhere where tipping is reasonable, I usually tip about 20%, to the closest dollar, sometimes more.

    Having said that, I really, really dislike the whole practice. Tell me up front what I should pay. That *includes* a good, fair wage for the people who currently depend on tips to make a living. Most tip-receiving employees depend on them - and as such, tipping isn't optional for anyone who believes in people receiving payment for their work. It's not a "hey, thanks" - it's a "hey, I'm not going to deprive you of your pay" for folks who almost universally work hard and do their best (mostly while being nice, too). Also, "quality of service" is pretty subjective, and especially in a restaurant (I used to work in one) is dependent on far more than the tip-ee has any control over (the same goes for taxi drivers getting stuck in traffic, etc.). There is the "do you want your server to act like the folks in the DMV" argument, but I find that in any business where I have a choice to go there, the people are generally nice, friendly, and try hard whether they get tips or not (checkers at the grocery store, for example).

    I'd much rather simply pay for service up front - if it's consistently bad - guess what? Don't expect me to come back. Just like any other non-tip-based industry.

    I actually find myself gratified when I go to a restaurant with a large group of people and see the "gratuity added to bill total for groups larger than X" notice on the menu. It's something I don't have to worry about (and frankly, I've never noticed service being poor if the tip was guaranteed up front). Usually we wind up "tipping" a bit more than the amount added on the bill anyway, but it's nice not having to deal with it. I'll also deliberately avoid having stuff delivered, etc. solely to not have to deal with the uncomfortable "delivery person is standing there wondering how much of a tip I'm going to give while I'm opening my wallet" moment. No thanks - I'll get in the car and pick it up myself.

  7. #57
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Recoleta View Post
    This would only work in an ideal world though and/or for people that really love to wait tables. Seriously, If I knew that no matter what I would be going home with 20% of the bill in my pocket my motivation to give superb service has just been eliminated.
    Is that really true, Recoleta? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but lots of people who don't get tips as part of their job do their best day in and day out, even if they're not thrilled about what they do. Sure, we can't always be at our best, but that's part of life. If you knew up front that you'd be paid fairly, would you really stop trying? I don't know you, but my guess is that you'd still try to be considerate and do a good job (you still have the risk of getting fired by your employer, like the rest of us ).

  8. #58
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Is that really true, Recoleta? I'm not trying to be argumentative, but lots of people who don't get tips as part of their job do their best day in and day out, even if they're not thrilled about what they do. Sure, we can't always be at our best, but that's part of life. If you knew up front that you'd be paid fairly, would you really stop trying? I don't know you, but my guess is that you'd still try to do a good job.
    Right! It's all just culture. I do a professional job where I provide advice and services to many clients at once. I don't leave off people to phone back because I don't get a tip or.. *cough* in any other circumstances what'd be called a bribe. I do good service because it matters to me to do a good job, and because the culture of my working environment leads to pride in my work.

    I've been offered a bribe or kickback occasionally.. usually from other countries. I'm invariably horrified and turn them down.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    So, in France, for example where tipping is not expected, it is normal to have great quality food (because they pride themselves in it, tip or no tip) and with rude, slightly surly, waiters. It's difficult to define why this works, it is just... culturally different to the US.
    So because the waiters don't have to worry about tips, they can be jerks and not have to worry about retribution from the customers? It's extremely rare to find a rude waiter in the US. And if you do, you're probably finding a poor waiter, as well.

    What do you think about commission based compensation?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    So because the waiters don't have to worry about tips, they can be jerks and not have to worry about retribution from the customers? It's extremely rare to find a rude waiter in the US. And if you do, you're probably finding a poor waiter, as well.

    What do you think about commission based compensation?
    Can't speak for Geoff, but as I basically agree with his position, I'll throw in my two cents. I agree, it is extremely rare to find a rude waiter in the U.S. In my experience, it's also rare to find a rude grocery clerk, a rude bookstore attendant, or a rude non-commission salesperson. If the employee (and let's be honest, particularly their employer) knows that I have a choice to take my business elsewhere, there's already a reason to provide good service. And frankly, I'd rather not have my ass kissed with the expectation of a handout.

    I'm iffy on the whole commission based compensation thing. I will say that I definitely prefer dealing with salespeople who don't do the stereotypical "hard sell" thing, and the commission-based pay tends to promote that. It seems to be an effort to remove at least a portion of the responsibility and risk from the employer and put it on the shoulders of the employee, and pushes a sense of desperation in bad times onto the folks who are dealing most directly with the customers (which, when I'm the customer, I don't like).

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