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  1. #111
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Coming from a culture where tipping isn't really mandatory (restaurant waiters generally get 0-12&#37 I agree with the non-tippers. Yes, higher wages makes the price go up, but that way the system gets more egalitarian and up front and less "suck-upy". When I was in Ghana I tipped everyone from librarians to police because it was expected, and I can't shake the feeling that the tipping system is a ghost from a different, less modern economic system.

    I expect and get excellent service in Norway from all kinds of waiters and sales people and give excellent service at the hotel where I work as a receptionist regardless of the fact that I've only gotten a total of $15 in tips during the 7 years I've worked there. I and the other service people are proud of the work we do, receive decent wages and additional (somewhat symbolic) fringe benefits whenever the business does good. I don't remember the minimum wage atm, but think it's around $22 an hour. After my 7 years I get $27/h + an additional $4/h for nights and weekends.

    In my eyes the tipping system is one (admittedly tiny) of many factors that undermine the work for a more egalitarian society.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  2. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I expect and get excellent service in Norway from all kinds of waiters and sales people and give excellent service at the hotel where I work as a receptionist regardless of the fact that I've only gotten a total of $15 in tips during the 7 years I've worked there. I and the other service people are proud of the work we do, receive decent wages and additional (somewhat symbolic) fringe benefits whenever the business does good. I don't remember the minimum wage atm, but think it's around $22 an hour. After my 7 years I get $27/h + an additional $4/h for nights and weekends.
    What you say is certainly true. I suppose I just see the folly of thinking that your experience could ever happen here. Waitstaff does well to make minimum wage here, and depending on what state you live in, minimum wage is anywhere from $6 to $8/hr. I can't see restaurant owners ever being coerced to increase waitstaff wages threefold when they can pass that on to the customer as the current system works.

    P.S., my work is salaried instead of by the hour, but if I actually worked out my hours vs. my salary I've never made $22/hour in my entire life
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  3. #113
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    To me, that's even worse. If the restaurant's own parking lot is the only parking within a reasonable distance, then valet is a straight screw job. It's like charging $5 for bottled water at a concert because they know you have to get it from them. I'm not saying they don't have the right...but I am saying that it looks like a brazen money grab to the customers.
    Let's say the restaurant doesn't even own a parking lot, that it rents a lot from a nearby bank. Let's say the bank has signs of its own stating that it will tow anyone who parks there that isn't a customer of the bank (or doesn't have a valet ticket in the window). Let's say that even if the restaurant opened that lot up to the public, there wouldn't be enough parking to go around, so the only way to keep things from being a clusterfuck is to use valets, who do more organizing than you seem to realize.

    I once valeted at a senior PGA tour event. There was a grand total of about 70 parking spots. We had several hundred cars (mostly fans and amateurs, not pros) come and go throughout the day. If we let the customers park themselves, it would have been a colossal mess, with traffic backed up for a quarter mile at times. When people wanted to come or go, it would have taken forever to get in or out of that lot. But we had things so organized, the longest anyone waited for their vehicle was 4 minutes. Oh, and the valet service was complimentary, paid for by the country club.

    I fail to see how this was a screw job. I think you don't know enough about the valet business to form a valid opinion.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I fail to see how this was a screw job. I think you don't know enough about the valet business to form a valid opinion.
    Well obviously if it's free it's not a screw job. I don't know who would contest that.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  5. #115
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Well obviously if it's free it's not a screw job. I don't know who would contest that.
    And what if valet parking is the same cost as the local public parking garage, except you don't have to walk 2 blocks?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #116
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    What you say is certainly true. I suppose I just see the folly of thinking that your experience could ever happen here.
    I guess that might be true. Norway had your system pre WW1 too. I think the major diff after that is that Norwegian labour unions got stronger and after a while got some support from the social democrat government, while the US unions eventually got raped by government.

    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    Waitstaff does well to make minimum wage here, and depending on what state you live in, minimum wage is anywhere from $6 to $8/hr. I can't see restaurant owners ever being coerced to increase waitstaff wages threefold when they can pass that on to the customer as the current system works.

    P.S., my work is salaried instead of by the hour, but if I actually worked out my hours vs. my salary I've never made $22/hour in my entire life
    I'll get almost double when I start teaching. But then again the price is I pay 30%+ of it back in taxes and have higher living expenses. Still, the result is a more egalitarian society where the gap between rich and poor isn't anywhere near the one in the US and where crime as a result is lower. (Edit: Not to mention free university, free health care, decent governmental child support etc.)
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  7. #117
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    while the US unions eventually got raped by government.
    LOL, what?

    AFT - American Federation of Teachers
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #118
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    And what if valet parking is the same cost as the local public parking garage, except you don't have to walk 2 blocks?
    I'd still probably walk the two blocks, honestly. I have nothing against valets and it's not an ideals thing for me, but if I have the choice between self-serve and being served by another person, I'll take self-serve nearly every time. I don't want to inadvertently under-tip someone or fail to tip because I wasn't aware of the social rules. I make an exception for restaurants because the rules on tipping are clear and universally agreed-upon (in the US). That, and I like food and eating.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
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  9. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    I'll get almost double when I start teaching. But then again the price is I pay 30%+ of it back in taxes and have higher living expenses. Still, the result is a more egalitarian society where the gap between rich and poor isn't anywhere near the one in the US and where crime as a result is lower. (Edit: Not to mention free university, free health care, decent governmental child support etc.)
    Wow. Where does all the money come from for that stuff? I pay over 30% of my salary in income taxes, too. Not to mention sales tax and property tax if you own your own home.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

    Johari
    /Nohari

  10. #120
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I'd still probably walk the two blocks, honestly. I have nothing against valets and it's not an ideals thing for me, but if I have the choice between self-serve and being served by another person, I'll take self-serve nearly every time. I don't want to inadvertently under-tip someone or fail to tip because I wasn't aware of the social rules. I make an exception for restaurants because the rules on tipping are clear and universally agreed-upon (in the US). That, and I like food and eating.
    Same here, I've never valeted, personally. I just don't understand how the system is a 'screw job'. In the few cases where I've seen mandatory valet parking, it's been complimentary. If there's a charge, you always have a choice.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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