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  1. #21
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    its not an emotional appeal. its an appeal to your wisdom and intelligence. mainly your wisdom which you neglect.
    Ok. So what reason would I have to betray my children?

  2. #22
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Do you have religious parents who you felt betrayed you?

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    The opposite is equally, if not more, true. Religious people are constantly in a state of having nothing to lose because they believe in the eternal over the corporeal world. They aren't afraid to lose everything.
    I know. That is why I inserted the part regarding the papacy. If the sole way to the eternal is via obedience in the corporeal then you will obey in the corporeal. It the corporeal doesn't concern you whilst the eternal does then you aren't going to risk losing the eternal for the sake of corporeal rebellion and disobedience.

  4. #24
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standuble View Post
    I know. That is why I inserted the part regarding the papacy. If the sole way to the eternal is via obedience in the corporeal then you will obey in the corporeal. It the corporeal doesn't concern you whilst the eternal does then you aren't going to risk losing the eternal for the sake of corporeal rebellion and disobedience.
    Well this goes back to what I said in my first post about distinguishing between religion and people who practice it poorly, and its potential to be used as a manipulative tool. I think the papacy is bull.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. You've basically proven both of our points, I think. Religion teaches us that the material world is of low importance compared to the eternal. Saying that it is in god's hands is not only ultimately true, but also shows a certain lack of greed; if greedy people think they deserve the world, well, let them have it. As noted, it's only a fleeting thing anyway. Fighting for control of the world, even if it is ostensibly against the "greedy" is itself greedy and will always wind up turning into exactly what it was before. See: Animal Farm.

    its this right here. its surrendering the present and everything beautiful in it and condemning those you love to a desolate future when you are gone by not heeding the importance of now. it perpetuates ugliness and earth a second hell before graduating to the next or wherever.

    no one knows the future but we know the choices made now are a good predictor of things to come. this philosophy is not helpful in creating the beautiful world you want for those after you or yourself.
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    im sitting by a bon fire right now, enjoying the weather tonight, with smores, thinking about how religion has served as a useful tool for institutions and officials.

    it`s often seems like a useful tool, along with racism to cause divides in our population. if we are at odds with each other, no ones going to focus on central issues.
    Religion is a way to keep one's mind in check. A person's mind is bigger than what a person wants it to be. Left unchecked, it'll go quite far. I'm not saying that it keeps you from thinking... but let me put it this way.

    I can't remember the person's name. It could very well be this guy. In ancient Europe (I believe Greek or Roman,) there was a rich and powerful person who still believed in Zeus. Before his deathbed, he chose to convert to Christianity. On his sarcophagus is a depiction of Jesus being on top of Zeus. What is the significance?

    One wonders why he decided to convert to Christianity. It could be possible that he needed closure in his life, and Christianity was the only notable idea that could give it to him.

    .......Of course religion has its misuses, just as many other objects and idea (money, power, etc.) There is one thing we all fear, whether we are rich or poor, and that is the time of our death.

  7. #27
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    its this right here. its surrendering the present and everything beautiful in it and condemning those you love to a desolate future when you are gone by not heeding the importance of now. it perpetuates ugliness and earth a second hell before graduating to the next or wherever.

    no one knows the future but we know the choices made now are a good predictor of things to come. this philosophy is not helpful in creating the beautiful world you want for those after you.
    Sorry but this is utter nonsense. I don't quite know where to begin.

    I mean, what do you choose? The present, or the future? You seem to start with one and then flip to the other. If I am to enjoy the present, that might mean not being such a political activist, paying ridiculous taxes, and not being incredibly rich. Will my children have an awesome future? I dunno. Hopefully I guess. If they want it, I'm sure it is up to them. Like I said, I don't control everything. I'll do everything I can for my children but there's a point at which you can only do so much, and to do more would actually be harmful. If I don't leave them with 10 million dollars, I guess I'm not perfect after all. If I don't leave them with some idealist utopia, well, hopefully they at least thought I had a nice personality. Lol.

  8. #28
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Just saying, that "beautiful world" you are talking about is never gonna come, not until us and our children and their children are long gone anyway. There's always gonna be bad guys that take from people and cause harm. The only way out is to renounce the worldly world and reside in your own world, where you do not acknowledge this evil. Then, even if you were to meet such people, you wouldn't define them by their evil actions, but would see the inherent good buried within them. So what if you get the short straw? Jesus got crucified. He was still Jesus, though.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by zago View Post
    I don't see anything wrong with that. You've basically proven both of our points, I think. Religion teaches us that the material world is of low importance compared to the eternal. Saying that it is in god's hands is not only ultimately true, but also shows a certain lack of greed; if greedy people think they deserve the world, well, let them have it. As noted, it's only a fleeting thing anyway. Fighting for control of the world, even if it is ostensibly against the "greedy" is itself greedy and will always wind up turning into exactly what it was before. See: Animal Farm.
    im still caught on this steaming pile of bs right here. you dont get to flip back and forth between realist while holding this notion
    "I'm not in this world to live up to your expectations and you're not in this world to live up to mine. "
    -Bruce Lee

  10. #30
    Senior Member zago's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    im still caught on this steaming pile of bs right here. you dont get to flip back and forth between realist while holding this notion
    Paradoxically I think it is the most realist and practical way to look at things.

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