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  1. #11
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    cafe, love it. So much contempt for territorial nerds.

    I also had Wonder Woman Underoos. Loved 'em. Back then, though, they also made R2D2 Underoos for girls (which I also had, and which were my favorites).

    Dressup has not been my thing since about 1983 but my daughter, now 13, likes to dress as Link from Zelda and various incarnations of Dr. Who on occasion.
    If I ever get to go to a con, there's no way I'm not cosplaying. Not Wonderwoman. Steampunk, maybe. My daughter loves to cosplay and skeevy guys are drawback, not a perk. As a matter of fact, when she went to a con as a male character she got randomly groped more than she did at the rave wearing a miniskirt. She still doesn't know what to make of that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    From the comments section of the one you posted, cafe:



    It's nuts, but he was probably not the only one giving her crap. It's not an isolated incident and I can't get my head around it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  2. #12
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    I've never been, but from what I've seen of it, I for some reason thought those girls were paid to be there and dressed up. I guess Tony Harris would know though. Talking about the ones that are alone and just standing around like they're going to sign an autograph, just talking to people, not really checking things/the tables/the guests out. LIKE I WOULD BE DOING.
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  3. #13
    78% me Eruca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by digesthisickness View Post
    I've never been, but from what I've seen of it, I for some reason thought those girls were paid to be there and dressed up. I guess Tony Harris would know though. Talking about the ones that are alone and just standing around like they're going to sign an autograph, just talking to people, not really checking things/the tables/the guests out. LIKE I WOULD BE DOING.
    From what I remember of that blog (the initial one the OP opened with), the author equates cosplaying women and girls with "booth babes". They are, of course, not the same thing. A booth babe is as you describe above, a payed entertainer, and so fairly likely to not, indeed, be a geek/nerd in reality. A female cosplayer is not payed to dress up or be at the con, and so is very likely to be a geek or nerd by dint of being interested enough to be there. By equating the two, one can bring into question the legitimacy of the latter's nerd cred. Its a smooth move.
    I hope I'm wrong, but I believe that he is a fraud, and I think despite all of his rhetoric about being a champion of the working class, it will turn out to be hollow -- Bernie Sanders on Trump

  4. #14
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eruca View Post
    From what I remember of that blog (the initial one the OP opened with), the author equates cosplaying women and girls with "booth babes". They are, of course, not the same thing. A booth babe is as you describe above, a payed entertainer, and so fairly likely to not, indeed, be a geek/nerd in reality. A female cosplayer is not payed to dress up or be at the con, and so is very likely to be a geek or nerd by dint of being interested enough to be there. By equating the two, one can bring into question the legitimacy of the latter's nerd cred. Its a smooth move.
    Ah. Thanks for explaining the differences. I knew, of course, about true fans dressing up, which I think is great, but wasn't sure if after reading that, I'd imagined wrongly that the others were paid to be there, or if there were actually three categories instead. The fans, the paid ones, and the additional category being women showing up who have no real interest or passion for comic-con's purpose, and are just using it to dress up and get attention because their chances of getting attention is much better being that they're depicting characters that have a fan base. Riding on that character's coattails, in other words, just for the thrill of the attention.
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  5. #15
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    @Ivy and @cafe

    Do you think this brings up questions about cultural appropriation?

    I think it does.

    All cultures or subcultures have certain concerns about maintaining heritage and authenticity, but all cultures have to adapt.

    Hence, tension.

    Personally I tend to believe that nobody can "own" a culture, but they have to right to be offended by how things are used.

    (ps not surprised by the groped less at a rave comment)
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  6. #16
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think people within the culture often see it that way, but I don't think it's really a valid analogue of real cultural appropriation which is frowned upon because of ties to imperialism and oppression, factors that don't really apply to geek culture. By and large I am not sympathetic with geeks who are possessive of geek culture and insist on vetting everyone who wants to be a part of the fun (well- not everyone. usually just pretty girls). I find it overwrought and I think they need to get over themselves, usually.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Bamboo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think people within the culture often see it that way, but I don't think it's really a valid analogue of real cultural appropriation which is frowned upon because of ties to imperialism and oppression, factors that don't really apply to geek culture. By and large I am not sympathetic with geeks who are possessive of geek culture and insist on vetting everyone who wants to be a part of the fun (well- not everyone. usually just pretty girls). I find it overwrought and I think they need to get over themselves, usually.
    Indeed, and I while I did intentionally conflate oppressive appropriation with more common appropriation in this case, I do see the difference. That said, you could argue that geeks feel like they are shunned from the mainstream (aka the concept of "comic book dork") and don't like having these people who just want to wear costumes and get attention as part of the group when they don't have the "real" background. I just find it striking this argument takes on the exact same format across every (sub)culture.

    I'd tend to agree with your assessment in any case, it does seem over the top, certainly the OP. The general sentiment of authenticity, however? I'm not sure, really. It does have some merit.

    You could argue that in this case, however, people are just angry because they don't know how to communicate well with this new group who on some level, they desire to interact with but find themselves unable to. Or these girls really are parading and obnoxious and possibly are genuinely dismissive. Probably some of both.
    Don't know how much it'll bend til it breaks.

  8. #18
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    I looked at the OP's quote of Tony Harris's as being less a general annoyance at those who "aren't true geeks" and more a build up of what was, at first, an irritating observation that finally ended in that "explosion." He's been to so many and seen it so many times, thus had those thoughts and feelings so many times, that he ended up expressing it at the pique of his annoyance. Which happens a lot with people. It takes a lot to get them truly upset enough to reach the level of expressing it, so that by the time they do, it's an expression of all of the times it got to them and can look to an observer like an exaggeration or over-sensitivity.

    Looking at it that way, I could see why it ended up the way it did. Meaning, if I finally got to go to one, and saw it, and did perceive it the way he did, it would be a lot easier for me to let it go as it would be a very small annoying part of my largely wonderful experience. He, however, saw it enough times, and perceived it that way enough times, that it turned into a very real issue for him. And, according to him, he's not the only one. I could be wrong, of course, but that's just how it read to me.

    Sigh. At least I have that to cling to as a positive for not going to every single one.
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  9. #19
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bamboo View Post
    @Ivy and @cafe

    Do you think this brings up questions about cultural appropriation?

    I think it does.

    All cultures or subcultures have certain concerns about maintaining heritage and authenticity, but all cultures have to adapt.

    Hence, tension.

    Personally I tend to believe that nobody can "own" a culture, but they have to right to be offended by how things are used.

    (ps not surprised by the groped less at a rave comment)
    I'm sure it's a real thing and applies in certain contexts, but putting comic book characters in that category would really be stretching it. I think, in this case and cases like it, it has a lot more to do with misogyny than it does genuine protection of the integrity of a culture.

    The complaint about girls cosplaying in skimpy costumes is kind of crazy to me, when there aren't that many female characters you can cosplay in certain geekdoms that appear in non-revealing clothes. When women complain about the way females are portrayed in comics, etc they are generally told to suck it up. So if someone happens to like a character and wants to cosplay as that character and be recognizable, they must wear a revealing costume.

    As far as booth babes go, when it's not worth companies' money to pay them to be there, they'll stop being a thing. It's probably not mostly geek chicks they're being hired to entertain. If geek guys want them to go away, all they have to do is ignore them for a year or two. Surely they can muster that much self-control, even in the face of mind controlling cleavage.

    I don't think most guys would have their geek cred questioned for, well, any reason, including but not limited to wearing a revealing costume. There might be other questions asked, but not whether they really were fans of a character. I mean, they can totally get by with appropriating My Little Pony but if a girl wears a Wonder Woman costume, it's a problem? That, IMO, is messed up. Male privilege at it's pettiest.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #20
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    When the fuck did being a nerd make you a hipster jock?

    "You're not a REAL nerd if you watch the Big Bang Theory! You ought to be actually studying science!" "You only SAY you like Spiderman! You didn't even know he died and Dr. Octogonomus took over his body!!" "You actually LIKED The Hulk Movies?! I don't think we can be friends anymore."

    Someone's seriously mad that girls are dressing the way they're drawn in comic books?? Change the wardrobe then! Stop drawing girls in tiny outfits and they'll stop costume playing in them!

    I don't see anyone at the bowling alley yelling at me because I say I like bowling and I actually suck at it because I'm a CASUAL player and don't play often enough to get good at the sport. I don't see anyone getting pissed off at me during our team sports days when I suck at football but claim to like it. No one gives me shit for not knowing every single member on the teams I support--I know what I like and I want to know if we win or lose, I don't mind the details too much.

    It's like being a nerd is suddenly acceptable (something nerds DREAMED ABOUT FOR SO LONG) and now that it is they're mad that MORE people are supporting their favorite things in the world and making the more readily acceptable?

    You know who else complains about this shit? Hipsters and bands. and No One Is On Myspace Anymore. No one likes that shitty little attitude. No one thinks it's cool to be a whiny angry twerp. No one wants to hang out with pretentious dicks.

    Edit: Comic book artists are constantly struggling.. anything to make more people support what they do, I am pretty sure they're all in for it. I don't see many comic book artists themselves complaining that people dress as their characters, whether they're die hard fans or just having fun and liking the outfit. The only people who complain about this are people who spent way too much of their personal time on something they liked and they're mad that no one else has time to do that.
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