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Thread: Irrational

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    Senior Member Ene's Avatar
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    Default Irrational

    I have recently begun to wonder if there are any rational people left in the world. I know there are but at times I have to look really hard to find them. Maybe it goes back to the old proverb of Solomon, "Every man thinks he is right in his own eyes." Maybe that's why there are so many "blind" [and I don't mean literally. This is NOT a slur against people who are physically blind] running around.

    Point in case....I spoke to a young man who came to my martial arts class and accepted a friendship request on facebook therefore, according to some woman I didn't even know existed, I am a deliberately trying to "steal" him. Go figure. That's a small example of the irrational types of things I'm thinking about.

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    Member nortia's Avatar
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    I too wonder the same things at times, but I think it has more to do with the level of self awareness each one of us possess. I'm sure if this woman were to actually think about why she felt that way, she would probably be able to figure out that her immediate emotional response was a distorted way of perceiving the situation. rationality can be achieved by everyone, if we all just take a moment to think before opening our mouths. but those who are slaves to their immediate emotional responses will struggle, and thus come off as irrational.
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    Senior Member Little_Sticks's Avatar
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    Are you saying that a rational person is someone who sees how they are blind?

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_Sticks View Post
    Are you saying that a rational person is someone who sees how they are blind?
    I would say that it is kind of a necessity for that, understanding that you, like everyone has biases. If you arent able to realize it about yourself, there is no way getting past the biases that we all have.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I have recently begun to wonder if there are any rational people left in the world. I know there are but at times I have to look really hard to find them. Maybe it goes back to the old proverb of Solomon, "Every man thinks he is right in his own eyes." Maybe that's why there are so many "blind" [and I don't mean literally. This is NOT a slur against people who are physically blind] running around.

    Point in case....I spoke to a young man who came to my martial arts class and accepted a friendship request on facebook therefore, according to some woman I didn't even know existed, I am a deliberately trying to "steal" him. Go figure. That's a small example of the irrational types of things I'm thinking about.

    Some people are very suspicious. I could see how deep-seated mistrust serves an evolutionary purpose, though it can be irritating when someone is all over your every move.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ene View Post
    I have recently begun to wonder if there are any rational people left in the world. I know there are but at times I have to look really hard to find them. Maybe it goes back to the old proverb of Solomon, "Every man thinks he is right in his own eyes." Maybe that's why there are so many "blind" [and I don't mean literally. This is NOT a slur against people who are physically blind] running around.

    Point in case....I spoke to a young man who came to my martial arts class and accepted a friendship request on facebook therefore, according to some woman I didn't even know existed, I am a deliberately trying to "steal" him. Go figure. That's a small example of the irrational types of things I'm thinking about.
    I do believe that mankind is more rationalising than reasoning or rational, I think I read it in a quote from the author who wrote Starship troppers first of all and I hate that author but even a stopped clock is right once or twice a day.

    I believe some of the greatest insights have come from psychoanalytical sources and they all testify about the power of affect rather than rational cognition, I think they are right about that and only a few people can manage in a sinlge lifetime to really achieve balance between rational and affective drives. I wouldnt consider myself or most of the people I know to be in that category.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I do believe that mankind is more rationalising than reasoning or rational
    agreed

    I believe some of the greatest insights have come from psychoanalytical sources and they all testify about the power of affect rather than rational cognition, I think they are right about that and only a few people can manage in a sinlge lifetime to really achieve balance between rational and affective drives. I wouldnt consider myself or most of the people I know to be in that category.
    i like jungs model about this the most when it comes to psychoanalytical models. simplified version would be something like that complexes are the irrational forces affecting cognition from the unconscious, and when this complex is strong enough it brings out emotion so strong that overrides the rational cognition and makes people act idiot and irrational.

    this can actually be tied to T and F also, if its just an emotion that is the guiding force, it comes through F, sort of boosting/guiding the value judgment(of whether something is worth doing or not), emotion comes from strong enough F judgment. or it can guide T also, which would cause rationalization.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    agreed
    +1.

    It's not necessarilly a bad thing. We have animal instincts but human brains. Ultimately the instincts drive us but our brain demands some level of logic to prevent us doubting ourselves.to the point where we don't act effectively

    I am not rational. I use logic and rationality to satisfy my irrational desires. I am not unhappy about it, we are what we are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    agreed



    i like jungs model about this the most when it comes to psychoanalytical models. simplified version would be something like that complexes are the irrational forces affecting cognition from the unconscious, and when this complex is strong enough it brings out emotion so strong that overrides the rational cognition and makes people act idiot and irrational.

    this can actually be tied to T and F also, if its just an emotion that is the guiding force, it comes through F, sort of boosting/guiding the value judgment(of whether something is worth doing or not), emotion comes from strong enough F judgment. or it can guide T also, which would cause rationalization.
    I like Jung's model of the unconscious too, although I did have to read two or three introductory guides before I really got a grip of it, its more complex than Freud's tripartite unconscious with the superego trying to ride two horses but once you've been acquainted with the theories for a while I think and theorising the unconscious/conscious it only begins to make sense that it is complex because life and the mind is complex.

    The psychological complexes as I remember them were unconscious archetypes or at least archetypes which the conscious mind rejected or disowned or couldnt integrate properly and which then become complexes rather than what they should have been. Its a bit like Fromm's idea about blocked growth resulting in disorder, like if a plant is growing in a restricted environment it grows all twisted and so do people, growth doesnt stop and carries on but it can be the worst sort of thing when its blocked and does.

    I do think that when things are buried in the unconscious, when the conscious mind cant handle them that affect overrides cognition to make their prescence felt like the ghost of christmas past.

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    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I like Jung's model of the unconscious too, although I did have to read two or three introductory guides before I really got a grip of it, its more complex than Freud's tripartite unconscious with the superego trying to ride two horses but once you've been acquainted with the theories for a while I think and theorising the unconscious/conscious it only begins to make sense that it is complex because life and the mind is complex.

    The psychological complexes as I remember them were unconscious archetypes or at least archetypes which the conscious mind rejected or disowned or couldnt integrate properly and which then become complexes rather than what they should have been. Its a bit like Fromm's idea about blocked growth resulting in disorder, like if a plant is growing in a restricted environment it grows all twisted and so do people, growth doesnt stop and carries on but it can be the worst sort of thing when its blocked and does.

    I do think that when things are buried in the unconscious, when the conscious mind cant handle them that affect overrides cognition to make their prescence felt like the ghost of christmas past.
    complexes themselves arent archetypes. complexes are the structures of the personal unconscious, archetypes are the structures of collective unconscious. however, complexes stem from archetypes, like if you differentiate everything out of the complex, what you are left is the collective roots of it(i.e the archetype). in the pyramid model, collective unconscious is at the bottom, personal unconscious at the middles and consciousness at the top, so consciousness stands on the personal unconscious and the personal unconscious stands on the collective unconscious and the pyramid is circled, which represents these things being inside the body(body isnt really thought as being part of the psyche by freud and others, but jung was a pioneer on this regard too).

    basically how jung saw it was that archetypes are the similar energy source for mind coming from the inside(hence the link on jungs introverted functions and collective unconscious), as the energy source coming from the outside, but naturally from different directions. and the archetype can work as a sort of amplifier to other things and complexes are basically energy blockages where the libido(mental energy) gets trapped and branches off to other directions(causing the irrational, unhealthy shit if too strong), instead of coming to consciousness directly.

    also, the archetype plays larger role in kids and more severally mentally disturbed people, so its usually more readily displayed in them.

    but complexes arent something that are a negative thing, we need complexes to build consciousness, to identify things etc etc, its just when the ego represses so much of the complex that it starts to gain its own authority over the ego(due to the psyche striving for balance and ego wanting to be comfortable and reject what doesent fit to its self image, which funnily is usually totally different than what the actual self is).
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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