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  1. #71
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    I don't know, I don't find this to be an irrational nakedness taboo. I truly don't want random men to see me in a state of semi-undress, nor am I assuming they're want to get a free peep show either. A lot of this has to do with body consciousness and self-esteem. I'm not trying to make my self-esteem issues anyone else's problem but I do think there are some "safe harbors" like the example I gave in the OP.

    And what I really want to discuss is the feminine modest aspect. Maybe I should've been more clear about that. I certainly wear my share of low-cut tops and I always am calling attention to The Twins but those are done on my terms, when I want to have that attention on me.
    YES. I'm happy to wear a one-piece bathing suit at the pool or beach, but I'd be uncomfortable showing that much skin in mixed-gender company just about anywhere else. Context matters.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by WobblyStilettos View Post
    I like it best when there are seats just outside the changing rooms for the dragged-along-boyfriends to sit on to wait, I don't see why they should come into the changing rooms at all really.
    Maybe they want to give an opinion on what the item looks like when tried on, but I agree, they should sit on the chairs or whatnot provided for them and not be inside the changing room area. I would complain and say I wasn't coming back to the store because of their policies.

    As far as some of the questions in this thread, I don't see why female modesty should be outdated.

    As far as transgenders go in regards to bathrooms and dressing rooms, however, in a public place or in a store, I think if they're presenting as female, then they need to use the female dressing room.
    At my husband's work, the male to female transgender persons have to get a female employee to check the ladiesroom, make sure it is empty and then the transgender person may use the restroom while the female employee waits outside to inform any women who come there that the transgender person is in there. There are only one or two per shift out of about 1500 employees so it is a rare case there. This is what was negotiated with the union and the women in that union.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf View Post
    You know, I just realized something...

    I wonder...

    Why is it that I've never seen any females in a Men's clothing store, but males are often seen in Women's clothing stores? Even in department stores, I rarely see females in the male sections, while there are often males in the female sections.
    I have waited in the little chairs outside as often as my husband has for me. He usually wants my opinion on what things look like and tends to let me pick the stuff out as he is not confident about his own tastes. Same for my best friend and her husband, but it is more common to simply know his size now and what he will and will not wear and I buy the stuff myself and he decides at home if he wants to keep it or not. Based on that, I think probably a lot more bachelors shop in stores and married men have their wives often buying their clothes and trying them on at home. Not always, but I'd be willing to bet very often.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by FineLine View Post
    When I've seen men in the women's clothing section or near the women's dressing rooms, it's almost always because the wife dragged him there.

    You even see it as a comedy routine (in commercials and such). The woman comes out of the dressing room in different outfits, asks the guy's advice, and then buys exactly the opposite of what the man recommended.

    I also see women in the men's clothing section or discreetly hanging around the men's dressing rooms. Usually they are girlfriends and wives who don't trust their guy to dress himself properly or know the latest fashion. You see them debating and discussing with the salesman or the tailor while the boyfriend or husband stands there silently looking uncomfortable.

    Just another sign that it's really women who run the world.
    I purposely go shopping with my female friend and not my husband for clothes because given the chance, he wants to see each item tried on and me come out and model (which means him telling me to turn 360 degrees slowly) it while he decides if it looks right or not and it embrasses me because the female salesperson will insist on being there with him and they would converse about it and other shoppers would stare...ugh. I haven't gone clothes shopping with him since my late 20's for this very reason. I think being older now it would be even more embrarassing a spectacle. People may think a guy fawning on a ingenue is cute, but a middle age lady maybe not so much.

    As far as picking out his clothes, he has no confidence in what looks good on him, he will rarely buy clothes on his own and it is very stressful at times to have to shop for him because he has this narrow range between what is either "not manly enough" or "too boring" that he will accept. After nearly 20 years of being together, I have a pretty good idea now what fits in that range, but occassionally it is nerve racking.

  4. #74
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I don't take my husband clothes shopping. He input is not particularly helpful and his grumpiness is distracting.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  5. #75
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    It's generally been my experience that men hanging round dressing rooms in women's stores tend to be more respectful than the women are - some women make unsolicited comments when I've come outside the cubicle to see what the clothes look like from a distance in one of the other mirrors. Makes me feel way uncomfortable and I scuttle back inside the cubicle. Ugh.

    I relate to Dom's comments more than Protean's.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I don't take my husband clothes shopping. He input is not particularly helpful and his grumpiness is distracting.
    Ha. Likewise.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  6. #76
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    At my husband's work, the male to female transgender persons have to get a female employee to check the ladiesroom, make sure it is empty and then the transgender person may use the restroom while the female employee waits outside to inform any women who come there that the transgender person is in there. There are only one or two per shift out of about 1500 employees so it is a rare case there. This is what was negotiated with the union and the women in that union.
    It's a good point. It is why I did not include "workplace" in my list, I was thinking public places basically in that description.

    Work is different because either you are stealth or everyone knows... and when they know is when the problems occur. There are many solutions and they are negotiated during the transition, with HR and whoever else is involved.

    (For example, if there's a small extra bathroom somewhere, sometimes it will get designated as unisex and informally designated for people in that situation. But I've also heard from people where the female coworkers have taken it on themselves to drag the transwomen to the female bathroom because they don't see what the deal is, after awhile. It depends on the culture and climate.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #77
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    It's generally been my experience that men hanging round dressing rooms in women's stores tend to be more respectful than the women are - some women make unsolicited comments when I've come outside the cubicle to see what the clothes look like from a distance in one of the other mirrors. Makes me feel way uncomfortable and I scuttle back inside the cubicle. Ugh.

    I relate to Dom's comments more than Protean's.
    well now I'm interested to know if people feel comfortable being naked in front of other people. Is it silly to feel uncomfortable being naked or semi-undressed in front of non-intimates? Do you walk to your mailbox in your bra and underwear? Would you think it was strange for someone to do that? I don't know very many people who are that confident in their bodies who are willing to put it on display like that. More power to them and if they're confident enough to do that fine, but I'm not.

    And the same way you feel uncomfortable and wanting to hide because of unwanted remarks is they way I feel when men are in the dressing room. Even if it's not happening, I feel like there's some type of silent assessment of my body. I'm not the type of person that would strip down to my underwear at a party or take my top off at a bar (I've seen that happen). I resent being made to feel unreasonable or prudish because I think it is a big deal that there's a man in the dressing room.

  8. #78
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    YES. I'm happy to wear a one-piece bathing suit at the pool or beach, but I'd be uncomfortable showing that much skin in mixed-gender company just about anywhere else. Context matters.
    Ok, I respect your opinion. But as I'm curious, in what way, or how do you think/feel that the context matters?

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    well now I'm interested to know if people feel comfortable being naked in front of other people. Is it silly to feel uncomfortable being naked or semi-undressed in front of non-intimates? Do you walk to your mailbox in your bra and underwear? Would you think it was strange for someone to do that? I don't know very many people who are that confident in their bodies who are willing to put it on display like that. More power to them and if they're confident enough to do that fine, but I'm not.
    I don't streak around myself. I will put my longcoat over a nightgown in winter to check the mail but that's the limit.

    I would never feel comfortable wearing a bikini in public. I just wouldn't want to.

    And the same way you feel uncomfortable and wanting to hide because of unwanted remarks is they way I feel when men are in the dressing room. Even if it's not happening, I feel like there's some type of silent assessment of my body. I'm not the type of person that would strip down to my underwear at a party or take my top off at a bar (I've seen that happen). I resent being made to feel unreasonable or prudish because I think it is a big deal that there's a man in the dressing room.
    You aren't being a prude. A prude is someone who takes on ridiculous or false modesty. I don't think anything you have described fits that definition, but I understand the resentment at feeling that way. People act like simple modesty is anitquated notion or something.

    Anyway, if one has already shown their bits to the world, then what is so special about sharing initmacy with a lover? There's something very special about sharing something that is kept very private with someone very close. That would lose its very specialness in the let all hang out there world!

  10. #80
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    well now I'm interested to know if people feel comfortable being naked in front of other people. Is it silly to feel uncomfortable being naked or semi-undressed in front of non-intimates? Do you walk to your mailbox in your bra and underwear? Would you think it was strange for someone to do that? I don't know very many people who are that confident in their bodies who are willing to put it on display like that. More power to them and if they're confident enough to do that fine, but I'm not.

    And the same way you feel uncomfortable and wanting to hide because of unwanted remarks is they way I feel when men are in the dressing room. Even if it's not happening, I feel like there's some type of silent assessment of my body. I'm not the type of person that would strip down to my underwear at a party or take my top off at a bar (I've seen that happen). I resent being made to feel unreasonable or prudish because I think it is a big deal that there's a man in the dressing room.

    Ok, the comments about naked mailboxing are a little extreme, the area we are discussing is contextually for getting dressed and undressed, one's driveway is not.

    Also Bluebell made a comment about something that happened, your objection seems to be over the potential for someone to comment. Frankly I'd suggest not worrying about it, if some ahole is rude enough to make an unflattering comment then their opinion is probably not worth the breath it took to express it.

    In otherwords, I just think everyone needs to seriously relax about this nakedness/looklike/attractiveness insanity that apparently 90% of female ego's are dependent on. While that is a horrid generalisation, it is what you certainly implied about yourself.

    Also I have noted that women certainly make silent assements of other womens bodies... much more than men do and more harshly.

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