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  1. #61
    Rats off to ya! Mort Belfry's Avatar
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    There should be gay male dressing rooms and toilets, then everyone will be happy.
    Why do we always come here?

    I guess we'll never know.

    It's like a kind of torture,
    To have to watch this show.

  2. #62
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Okay, then... do you think other men feel this way, or is this just what you personally feel? What makes you believe it's common sense and not your opinion? Do common sense and practicality carry more weight than feelings, or do feelings carry more weight? We have to decide that before moving forward.
    Whoa, this isn't some philosophical debate. It just doesn't seem like a big issue to me.
    I'm just saying, there has to be a rule one way or the other for consistency's sake, because that would certainly constitute common sense, and resolve the issue (assuming that should be the standard). Also, it seems somewhat strange that you are demanding to be able to do something for practical reasons (thus disregarding other's feelings), yet turning around and using your feelings as a reason why you should be accommodated by these people enough to have a request made of you instead of you implicitly understanding it.
    Huh? I think you are overcomplicating the matter.

    For one, I haven't demanded a single thing. Two, I can't imagine what you mean by "using my feelings". If you mean that I think it is tasteless to do something that could be perceived as discourteous when it is impractical to do so, then you are correct but I am unsure as to how that pertains to this argument. And third, I made the argument that it is an inconvenience either way, thereby acknowledging that expecting a request is similarly inconvenient thereby rendering your point moot. I then made the rather logical argument that since people can only control their own actions, if they wish to teach others that it is discourteous to use a certain dressing room, then they should ask the management to have them leave so they know better next time.

    Checkmate Athenian. (In other words, I conceded in my last post to you that it was an inconvenience either way and I made my argument in my post to Ivy that it would benefit the interest of the individual who was put off to make such a request, thereby beating you before you even made your post. Pretty good since I didn't even know we were competing.)

    Have you studied rhetoric or logic much, Kiddo? I believe you would do well to do so. You have the passion, just not enough of the skill.
    I've studied logic and rhetoric quite a bit, and perhaps if I have some spare time I'll teach you a little something.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #63
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Whoa, this isn't some philosophical debate. It just doesn't seem like a big issue to me.


    Huh? I think you are overcomplicating the matter.

    For one, I haven't demanded a single thing. Two, I can't imagine what you mean by "using my feelings". If you mean that I think it is tasteless to do something that could be perceived as discourteous when it is impractical to do so, then you are correct but I am unsure as to how that pertains to this argument. And third, I made the argument that it is an inconvenience either way, thereby acknowledging that expecting a request is similarly inconvenient thereby rendering your point moot. I then made the rather logical argument that since people can only control their own actions, if they wish to teach others that it is discourteous to use a certain dressing room, then they should ask the management to have them leave so they know better next time.

    Checkmate Athenian.

    Actually I think you're still not getting it. There are a certain set of assumptions you can reasonably make about

    I've studied logic and rhetoric quite a bit, and perhaps if I have some spare time I'll teach you a little something.
    Kiddo you often think you're logical but I regret to inform you you're not. You reduce nearly every thread you participate in into a pulpy, quicksand mish mash of nothingness. Here's a big fat gender politics thread that I hand to you on a silver platter and you think it's silly. I gave this one to you!

    There were several issues I was trying to tease out of my little experience here and you could have latched onto to any one of them:

    1. Is feminine modesty (or modesty in general) anachronistic and outdated?
    2. Is it discrimination to ask men to leave or not try on clothes in a woman's clothing store (not unisex)?
    3. Does sexual orientation matter (example there could be a lesbian oogling

    You seemed to have selectively read the OP and then went on this crazy tangent that I'm not even sure I want to even stop and figure out. I think that it's reasonable to assume that upon entering a woman's clothing store the dressing rooms are also single sex. No, I don't encounter signs explicitly saying that because it's implicit in the nature of the store. I said I wasn't upset enough to say anything to the sales staff, but I did raise an eyebrow. I even gave the Curve's example to muddy the waters a bit.

    RE the inconvenience: As someone already pointed out the stores caters to female clientele. That means any guys wanting to try on clothes (not buy, just try them on) or waiting for a female shopper should realize they're not the targeted customer. They should be the ones willing to deal with the inconvenience, not the other way around. If the female shopper wants the guy to see the clothes she should take herself to the area (if one is available) where people wait. You don't have much a leg to stand on as far as I'm concerned about the inconvenience factor.

  4. #64
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    ... I remember a few years ago that some women were upset because a transgendered man was using the Curves locker room to change. I don't remember the outcome but in situations like these I think it's grounds for saying "Hey man, this is a woman's dressing room and you can't be in there." My friend and I were thinking that the store may not want to say anything because they may get hit with a discrimination lawsuit, but these are clearly women's clothing stores. I don't see whose freedoms and rights trump whose.


    I empathize with you, PM. I wish it was easy to resolve in a way that completely accommodated everyone; I just don't know a good solution that realistically gets everyone 100% what they want.

    As far as the Curves room goes, I do agree with you that biological males should not be changing in them. Curves is really touchy of an issue -- it's an all-female gym. That really complicates things, to me. (Honestly, I wouldn't want to be a member there because it makes me uncomfortable to make others uncomfortable. But what do you do if you've got breasts and belong to a unisex gym? Change in the male room? Yeah, that's not exactly safe in a LOT of ways. It's almost easier to avoid gym changing rooms altogether.)

    As far as transgenders go in regards to bathrooms and dressing rooms, however, in a public place or in a store, I think if they're presenting as female, then they need to use the female dressing room. I think it is FAR more disruptive to force someone presenting as female to use a male room... and sometimes not safe for the transperson. If there's a coed area or family bathroom, maybe that will work. But otherwise? I try to be courteous and just get in and get out -- that's the rule. Don't dally.

    (I mean, let's say you're in Lane Bryant. There's no male room to use! Either get a separate room for the TGs (to honor everyone's needs)... or I'm afraid you would just have to focus on presentation and not imagine what could be under the clothes because in general you don't know what ANYONE looks like under their clothes. Or what if you're not sure you're dealing with a transperson? It's rather insulting for a biological woman to be questioned as to her gender status.)

    Note that I do place some burden on the TG folks. I think if a transwoman is gonna use the female dressing room, she should be presenting as female and trying not to be disruptive and should be considering how others feel.

    Meanwhile, gay guys who aren't presenting openly as females should use a male room. They're presenting as male. If they want to buy female clothes, have them arrange with the store owner if possible to get some privacy or a "time designated" to come in.

    To me, it's all about presentation. WYSIWYSBG (what you see is what you should be getting).

    I also have to add that gay guys and transwoman aren't leering at female bodies. I understand how some women might still feel uncomfortable anyway, but you do have to recognize that it's, like, the last thing on their minds... just for the record.

    I will also say that perhaps you'd be willing to make a distinction between those who are transwomen and eventually the right "biology" and fit in and transvestites who will always have a male body and just like the clothes.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #65
    Earth Exalted Thursday's Avatar
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    Blah blah blah, gay guy in women's dressing room
    another guy that was 6'4"

    did the dress look good on the gay guy ?
    I N V I C T U S

  6. #66
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    OK...

    I was recently invited into the area off which a whole bunch of changing stalls opened on to, to pass comment on my girlfriends choice that she was trying on. She invited me in with a cheerful "Come here". The shop assistant immediately interdicted and told me I had to remain out side this room.

    This room opened directly on to the shop floor, there was no door, it was a floor to celling open gap about 20 feet wide. So my Girlfriend had no choice; if she wanted my comments on what her outfit looked like, she had to show the whole world watching and as an INTP that was probably a little uncomfortable.

    The changing room was not clearly marked as women only, and teen-aged boys (who in my opinion are far more likely to be sexually titillated by some quick glance at a calf or bare back than I was) were in the area I had been ecluded from, with their mothers.

    I have always found such places uncomfortable for numerous reasons. Firstly unless clearly gender specific I do not know if I am supposed to be there. This is made worse because some times, as was the case above, the area can be seen into even from outside of the store! Secondly because I feel I have to lurk about, so whomever I'm with can pop out and show me whatever it is she wants my opinion on, I find myself worried that other women will assume i'm some kind of perv, which I'm not. Also I have never been shopping with a woman (dragged or otherwise) where they didn't want my opinion on their choices before they would buy them! Seriously this is a nervous situation for a guy who wants no trouble with any females, the one he is with or randoms. I also don't want to be an arsehole boyfriend/husband who refuses to go shopping with his partner.

    As for the buying and trying on at home, I personally have known women and myself who have had trouble returning clothes on the grounds that they didn't fit. They wouldn't refund me because I SHOULD have tried them on in their unisex changing rooms before buying. Until I got upset enough to get a manager they only offered an exchange which was naff as there was nothing else in the store I wanted. I frankly see this concept as a total inconvenience and I image others would too. When I go to buy a shirt, I want to come home with the job done, shopping is boring and stressful enough as it is without go home thinking the job may not be done!!

    I have some questions of the ladies though....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jen View Post
    Lesbians don't have penises.
    What has that to do with it? Your concern then is that some guy in the changing rooms may flash you? and you are unconcerned about being flashed by a lesbian? That is the only assumption I can make... I find the suggestion crazy as how on earth is this guy going to "get away" with flashing you in a changing room area? Someone else is likely to see and certainly intervene when you complain. I also think it is incredibly unlikely to happen, there are simply not that many crazy perverts, same as there are not that many serial killers and so on and so forth.

    Quote Originally Posted by jen
    Agreed, but I wouldn't want a 6'4 dude gawking around while I am trying on clothes. Then again I rarely try clothes on in a store so whatever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacuss View Post
    Well, it obviously is an issue to enough women...
    I'm not sure I really understand, what is the problem? We are not talking about sharing cubicles and so I can't imagine anyone would see anything unless someone went out half dressed into a more communal area, a thing I've only seen people do to show others excluded from the rooms from their choices look like.

    All of this appears to be based on an irrational nakedness taboo. I'm not some raving naturalist, who walks around beaches naked, but I find it ridiculous that I used to get embarrassed if a stranger saw me partially undressed. We all know what a woman or man looks like, this embarrassment is irrational. There is no shame in what I or you look like and while I don't want to walk around Macy's naked, if I'm in a changing area getting changed then I'd be adult about there being women in the area and careful about how I behaved.

    Honestly, while I think this is a small issue really, and while I accept that people who want it should have privacy, I don't understand why members of the opposite sex should be excluded from anywhere but the actual room someone is getting undressed in, and even then they should be allowed in, if invited (into the particular stall invited into... obviously ).

    I find that this suggestion causes offense, even to people who don't assume that members of the opposite sex are trying to get a look at their "goodies", very odd indeed, but everyone is entitled to their opinion; I simply thought the Victorian age was long gone....

  7. #67
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Kiddo you often think you're logical but I regret to inform you you're not. You reduce nearly every thread you participate in into a pulpy, quicksand mish mash of nothingness. Here's a big fat gender politics thread that I hand to you on a silver platter and you think it's silly. I gave this one to you!
    I'm illogical because I didn't argue the thread the way you wanted me to? Is that a logical argument to make?

    There were several issues I was trying to tease out of my little experience here and you could have latched onto to any one of them:

    1. Is feminine modesty (or modesty in general) anachronistic and outdated?
    2. Is it discrimination to ask men to leave or not try on clothes in a woman's clothing store (not unisex)?
    3. Does sexual orientation matter (example there could be a lesbian oogling
    Good questions. I guess everyone else in this thread who didn't discuss them must be equally illogical. After all, who is the bigger fool? The fool or the one who argues with the fool?

    You seemed to have selectively read the OP and then went on this crazy tangent that I'm not even sure I want to even stop and figure out. I think that it's reasonable to assume that upon entering a woman's clothing store the dressing rooms are also single sex. No, I don't encounter signs explicitly saying that because it's implicit in the nature of the store. I said I wasn't upset enough to say anything to the sales staff, but I did raise an eyebrow. I even gave the Curve's example to muddy the waters a bit.
    I'm a solution oriented guy. Somehow when you said that you don't want guys in the lady's dressing room (with an exclamation point) and said you didn't bring it up with the management because you thought they might worry about a discrimination lawsuit, it gave me the idea that you were somewhat upset by the inconvenience, even if you said otherwise. To much reading between the lines?

    RE the inconvenience: As someone already pointed out the stores caters to female clientele. That means any guys wanting to try on clothes (not buy, just try them on) or waiting for a female shopper should realize they're not the targeted customer. They should be the ones willing to deal with the inconvenience, not the other way around. If the female shopper wants the guy to see the clothes she should take herself to the area (if one is available) where people wait. You don't have much a leg to stand on as far as I'm concerned about the inconvenience factor.
    Point noted. People should check the targeted demographics of the stores they shop at first because those denote who should be inconvenienced. Such an obvious rule should be common sense.

    I shall return to argue the other points addressed in a bit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #68
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    btw...i'm going to lane bryant's tomorrow, with FineLine and his wife, somewhere in Baltimore, during the day while the traffic is low. So if you're in that city anywhere, PM, don't go there.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #69
    Plumage and Moult proteanmix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I will also say that perhaps you'd be willing to make a distinction between those who are transwomen and eventually the right "biology" and fit in and transvestites who will always have a male body and just like the clothes.
    Yes thank you...I am making a distinction between men who present as women vs. men who are trying on clothes not presenting as women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post

    All of this appears to be based on an irrational nakedness taboo. I'm not some raving naturalist, who walks around beaches naked, but I find it ridiculous that I used to get embarrassed if a stranger saw me partially undressed. We all know what a woman or man looks like, this embarrassment is irrational. There is no shame in what I or you look like and while I don't want to walk around Macy's naked, if I'm in a changing area getting changed then I'd be adult about there being women in the area and careful about how I behaved.

    Honestly, while I think this is a small issue really, and while I accept that people who want it should have privacy, I don't understand why members of the opposite sex should be excluded from anywhere but the actual room someone is getting undressed in, and even then they should be allowed in, if invited (into the particular stall invited into... obviously ).

    I find that this suggestion causes offense, even to people who don't assume that members of the opposite sex are trying to get a look at their "goodies", very odd indeed, but everyone is entitled to their opinion; I simply thought the Victorian age was long gone....
    I don't know, I don't find this to be an irrational nakedness taboo. I truly don't want random men to see me in a state of semi-undress, nor am I assuming they're want to get a free peep show either. A lot of this has to do with body consciousness and self-esteem. I'm not trying to make my self-esteem issues anyone else's problem but I do think there are some "safe harbors" like the example I gave in the OP.

    And what I really want to discuss is the feminine modest aspect. Maybe I should've been more clear about that. I certainly wear my share of low-cut tops and I always am calling attention to The Twins but those are done on my terms, when I want to have that attention on me.
    Last edited by proteanmix; 06-15-2008 at 08:51 PM. Reason: merged posts

  10. #70
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Whoa, this isn't some philosophical debate. It just doesn't seem like a big issue to me.
    Even small issues can be philosophical debates, actually.
    For one, I haven't demanded a single thing.
    Well, you did say that the person who is offended is responsible to complain, and that the person who offended them has no responsibility to avoid doing so in the first place, placing more responsibility (a demand) on the person offended than the one who offends. I think it would be better to have an established rule, rather than having everyone subject to everyone else's whims. A clear sign or rule, in either direction, would be better than lack of clarity.
    Two, I can't imagine what you mean by "using my feelings". If you mean that I think it is tasteless to do something that could be perceived as discourteous when it is impractical to do so, then you are correct but I am unsure as to how that pertains to this argument.
    It pertains simply because you think that practicality enables you to ignore taste in one sense (entering the room), but that taste should entitle you to be confronted by the person offended directly rather than being subject to a rule, which is a more practical instrument than taste.
    And third, I made the argument that it is an inconvenience either way, thereby acknowledging that expecting a request is similarly inconvenient thereby rendering your point moot. I then made the rather logical argument that since people can only control their own actions, if they wish to teach others that it is discourteous to use a certain dressing room, then they should ask the management to have them leave so they know better next time.
    So, you are saying that it is equally acceptable to inconvenience someone else as it is yourself? In one instance, it is inconveniencing yourself, in another it's doing so to another... there's a difference in how the two are viewed.
    Checkmate Athenian. (In other words, I conceded in my last post to you that it was an inconvenience either way and I made my argument in my post to Ivy that it would benefit the interest of the individual who was put off to make such a request, thereby beating you before you even made your post. Pretty good since I didn't even know we were competing.)
    Your argument is better this time, but I don't know you won just yet. You're a lot closer, though.

    Yes, it would benefit their interest to do so, once this has occurred. But why is it not better to for the individuals to be subject to rules that would prevent this even being an issue? So that both persons know what they can reasonably expect, without offense or taste entering into it?
    I've studied logic and rhetoric quite a bit, and perhaps if I have some spare time I'll teach you a little something.
    Ah, very good. Yes, you probably weren't trying before. I try to learn what I can from everyone, so I'd accept that offer.

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