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  1. #101
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    That's what I don't understand. I'm with Bluebell here, I'd be so much more uncomfortable with a bunch of women walking around naked than I would be with men standing in areas where people walk out clothed. I hate locker rooms, and being expected to be comfortable with getting naked in front of other women. At least with a dressing room, no one is watching me and I don't come out until I'm covered.
    Exactly. It's the nudity/half clothed thing that's the issue for me, not what gender are the people who are standing on the opposite side of a locked door or heavy curtain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I've never even seen a guy hanging around a changing room. I was pretty amazed that it happened to pm when I read her OP, and even more amazed to read that it was fairly run-of-the-mill in some areas.
    Maybe it's a cultural thing. It's not the norm where I live, but it does happen and nobody thinks twice about it, except for maybe a brief pang of sympathy if the guy is looking bored out of his mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't think I've ever heard another woman make a comment to anyone besides her companions in the changing area.
    It doesn't happen that often to me, but annoys the hell out of me when it happens even if it's a positive comment. I've never seen guys comment - they seem more respectful of boundaries outside dressing rooms.

    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    I don't see what some females who violate boundaries gives men a right to be in female dressing room areas beyound the designated gate areas.
    I guess I haven't seen a clear arguement as to why men should be excluded. As far as I can tell, it's a combination of personal boundaries and personal hang-ups as to whether it bugs women or not to have men walk past the invisible gate.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

  2. #102
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by proteanmix View Post
    Honestly, no. But I have heard men call fully clothed women fat, chunky, ugly, etc. I assume that it would be even worse if the amount of clothing the women were wearing is reduced. But then that could be my illogical assumption. I think most guys in dressing rooms are smart enough to keep their commentary contained to their companion or they may get a purse upside their head.
    I've heard woman say far worst things about people a lot better looking than the ones some male idiots comment on. I'd almost be prepared to put money on the comments you overheard being made to another man too, and you really rarely get two of them as a party anywhere near changing rooms. Also some women pick clothes that trully do not flatter them (IMO) in many cases these women probably would look better naked.

    Also how are they seeing these women with less clothes on? Do you really come out of the cublicals half dressed? Obviously if you are trying on swim wear there is less clothing on, but if you are going to wear it by the pool then other people will see anyway!

    Also if someone is keeping their thoughts to themselves how can they be causing harm and surelly whatever it is you are afraid they may be thinking is your problem as it is in your head!

  3. #103
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Not through walls, but over/around doors and curtains? Yeah. Most fitting rooms are not much more private than a bathroom stall.
    But even so, to actually see something one would have to try or attempt to look. I can't believe that you Cafe, think most men would be trying to peak?

    I guess unisex restrooms would be totally out too... (I never understood why we have sepperate restrooms either)

    As for the curtains/stall doors, that is fixable by the store, and is a problem males changing rooms have too... There is no reason why they need not be a solid or atleast as opaque as your front door.. (actually does anyone know why they leave that gap at the top and bottom?)

  4. #104
    heart on fire
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    I've heard woman say far worst things about people a lot better looking than the ones some male idiots comment on. I'd almost be prepared to put money on the comments you overheard being made to another man too, and you really rarely get two of them as a party anywhere near changing rooms. Also some women pick clothes that trully do not flatter them (IMO) in many cases these women probably would look better naked.

    Also how are they seeing these women with less clothes on? Do you really come out of the cublicals half dressed? Obviously if you are trying on swim wear there is less clothing on, but if you are going to wear it by the pool then other people will see anyway!

    Also if someone is keeping their thoughts to themselves how can they be causing harm and surelly whatever it is you are afraid they may be thinking is your problem as it is in your head!

    There are gaps in many of the swing doors at places like that, women bring toddler age children along who may come and pull at curtains when mother is distracted, that's happened to me. I don't want to be in my underwear and look up and see some guy's face when that happens! Usually the tops of the cubicle is open, the curtains don't go to the ceiling, a taller person can certainly look in.

    If it were totally closed off then that would be a different thing, but in my experience it isn't. The female sales people usually can keep a pretty good eye on things happening in the cubicles in my experience, so if they could, so could any males in the area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    But even so, to actually see something one would have to try or attempt to look. I can't believe that you Cafe, think most men would be trying to peak?
    Irrelevant, whether they would or not, it is the impression that could is uncomfortable. They are strangers to me, I don't know them. Why should I have to trust in their good will to me?

    I guess unisex restrooms would be totally out too... (I never understood why we have sepperate restrooms either)
    Sure, I want the opposite sex to see me in all the gross indispositions of the private moments of my life and I should want to see them in that way too.

    As for the curtains/stall doors, that is fixable by the store, and is a problem males changing rooms have too... There is no reason why they need not be a solid or atleast as opaque as your front door.. (actually does anyone know why they leave that gap at the top and bottom?)
    Because the store wants to be able to know what's going on in cubicles because people do steal.

  5. #105
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dom View Post
    But even so, to actually see something one would have to try or attempt to look. I can't believe that you Cafe, think most men would be trying to peak?

    I guess unisex restrooms would be totally out too... (I never understood why we have sepperate restrooms either)

    As for the curtains/stall doors, that is fixable by the store, and is a problem males changing rooms have too... There is no reason why they need not be a solid or atleast as opaque as your front door.. (actually does anyone know why they leave that gap at the top and bottom?)
    They are cheap. And no, I don't think most men are trying to peek, certainly not at me, but that does not change the extreme discomfort of the situation.

    And FWIW, telling a woman her problem is in her head is . . . not such a good idea right after poopooing Victorian attitudes.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #106
    Free-Rangin' Librarian Jae Rae's Avatar
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    It seems some people don't understand the idea of context or proper behavior. A man sitting on a chair outside a woman's dressing room should keep his eyes (and thoughts about other women) to himself and appraise his girlfriend or wife's outfit AND NO ONE ELSE's. He shouldn't be noticing what other women look like, much less making comments about them.

    We're talking about boundaries that we have every right to expect will be honored. A man in the dressing area who's minding his own business and acting like a gentleman doesn't bother me. A man looking me up and down and/or making comments would bother me and make me uncomfortable. Personally I've never been in that situation, even at the Gap.

    If I ask a woman for her opinion, she can give it to me. Otherwise, her comments will be unwanted. But it's doubtful I'd feel she'd appraised me sexually unless she commented on my "goods." If a woman made a rude comment about how I looked in an outfit, I'd avoid the store that catered to that kind of customer or had that kind of sales help.

    As for bathing suits in or out of the dressing room, one time I was at the beach with a friend who was very well-endowed. I went into the water without her and when I returned, she and a guy were squared off awkwardly. He quickly left and she told me he'd come up to her and said "You have by far the best breasts I've seen on the beach today." Was this his opening line? If so, it didn't work with my friend, who was chagrined and embarrassed by his rude and unwanted comment.
    Proud Female Rider in Maverick's Bike Club.

  7. #107
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluebell View Post
    I guess I haven't seen a clear arguement as to why men should be excluded. As far as I can tell, it's a combination of personal boundaries and personal hang-ups as to whether it bugs women or not to have men walk past the invisible gate.
    Invisible gate? Ah that maybe the problem, I mean how do I know it's there if it's invisible?

    I see no clear argument for why either, I'm not asking to be allowed to ogle, and frankly I'm aware that my presence is potentially troublesome for some women. Which is why I keep quiet and to myself. All I want to be able to do is what the woman I am with wants me to do: wait, without being made to feel like a pervert; or be able to see what her choices look like and give her my opinion, without having to create a scene. Why should that breach anyone's ideals of modesty?

    I do not intentionally look at the other people around me, just as I wouldn't in the guys chaning area, and I don't see why it should be assumed that because I am male I will be making judgements about anyone other than the person i'm being asked too.

  8. #108
    heart on fire
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    Most stores in my experience have a very visible gate to the dressing room area, one cannot get through without taking the little dressing room token from the salespeople to get through usually.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Dom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jae Rae View Post
    We're talking about boundaries that we have every right to expect will be honored. A man in the dressing area who's minding his own business and acting like a gentleman doesn't bother me. A man looking me up and down and/or making comments would bother me and make me uncomfortable. Personally I've never been in that situation, even at the Gap.
    This is what I mean, and why I'm being a pain about it, can someone explain why a male behaving as Jae Rae suggests, like a gentleman, should be excluded?

    Bad behaviour shouldn't be assumed on the basis of gender.

  10. #110
    Senior Member bluebell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by heart View Post
    Irrelevant, whether they would or not, it is the impression that could is uncomfortable. They are strangers to me, I don't know them. Why should I have to trust in their good will to me?

    Sure, I want the opposite sex to see me in all the gross indispositions of the private moments of my life and I should want to see them in that way too.
    OK, maybe I'm missing something here. This question is not just aimed at heart, but the others who are also uncomfortable with guys coming in to the dressing room. Why does gender make a difference? For me, everything that heart has written equally applies to both men and women strangers.
    ...so much smoke pouring out of each chromosome.

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