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  1. #161
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Sometimes there are issues where there are spectrums. Other times there are issues where there are two sides with two different sets of presuppositions that lead to opposite conclusions. Then other people come in and try to mash the two conclusions together without even understanding the presuppositions and how they relate to the conclusions being made and just end up being more irrational than either side be they right or wrong.





    I never said we couldn't make policy arguments or that they didn't have a place.






    You are confused about agency and who is doing what to whom. "We" do nothing to a rape victim. The only agent actions taking place in your scenario is the rape of the woman by the rapist and the killing of the child by the woman/doctor. As far as your torture argument goes it has been a longstanding rule even under the old common law crimes that duress is never a justification for murder.

    Right now if you were being tortured and your torturer promised to free you if you killed someone for him it would still be murder if you did it and you could be found guilty.

    Our legal system and society protects innocent persons even if there might be a seemingly good reason like duress or necessity. We lay on people the moral and legal obligation to take the high road when a life endangering situation could be resolved through killing an innocent. We do this because an innocent person's right to life is the most fundamental of all rights and supersedes all others.

    I see no reason to make an exception in the case of children of rape.
    There is a "we" in the case of minors. Girls as young as ten and sometimes even younger.

    I know I can't convince you because you see the fetuses life as trumping everything. However I think these girls and women have a right not to go through with a pregnancy they have no responsibility in creating. I think it would be heroic to do so but not a moral obligation. I think I have a right not to have my body used for other people's purposes including bring a child into the world. And for minors who can't understand most of this I think their bodies should not be used by adults to secure our values.


    A for your scenario I think you would have to tweak to address adult women and minors. for adults the other person is inadvertently doing the torturing and their survival depends on my survival. I think at that point it becomes murky, which is my point.

    Or it like asking, would you torque a child to save someone's life. I think then the responsibility for the loss of life falls on the rapist and not on the child or the adults helping her.

  2. #162
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Btw, this is a great example of having to respond to 3 people right away.
    I'm not sure what you expect when you promote a controversial idea in a culture where you know that people are more moderate (if not liberal) in their approach. The alternative would just be to have everyone ignore you.

    Put another way, if I understood the point of the above quote correctly, it seems kind of self-serving to walk in, take a position such as "it's immoral to legalize abortion for raped children," and then complain (or alternately use as some kind of credit to your character) that you are having to defend yourself in a spontaneous three-way.

    This is just a problem when someone takes an extreme position on either end (liberal or conservative) and then presents themselves as a harried minority in the discussion. I mean, what did you expect? It's part of the dynamic.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #163
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure what you expect when you promote a controversial idea in a culture where you know that people are more moderate (if not liberal) in their approach. The alternative would just be to have everyone ignore you.

    Put another way, if I understood the point of the above quote correctly, it seems kind of self-serving to walk in, take a position such as "it's immoral to legalize abortion for raped children," and then complain (or alternately use as some kind of credit to your character) that you are having to defend yourself in a spontaneous three-way.

    This is just a problem when someone takes an extreme position on either end (liberal or conservative) and then presents themselves as a harried minority in the discussion. I mean, what did you expect? It's part of the dynamic.

    Hmmm. I think I understand where @Beorn is coming from. Since he is a minority voice more questions are directed at him than people in the majority. I could see how it would feel like you were vein jumped on. But from the other point of view I'm not really reading his interactions from with others so for me it seems more like just a conversation. So far it's much more civil and pleasant than having a discussion with a certain "nightclub pastry" we all know. ::

  4. #164
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not sure what you expect when you promote a controversial idea in a culture where you know that people are more moderate (if not liberal) in their approach. The alternative would just be to have everyone ignore you.

    Put another way, if I understood the point of the above quote correctly, it seems kind of self-serving to walk in, take a position such as "it's immoral to legalize abortion for raped children," and then complain (or alternately use as some kind of credit to your character) that you are having to defend yourself in a spontaneous three-way.

    This is just a problem when someone takes an extreme position on either end (liberal or conservative) and then presents themselves as a harried minority in the discussion. I mean, what did you expect? It's part of the dynamic.
    How in the world would you understand my intentions and feelings when I make just a simple statement that's obviously true to everyone?

    There was no point, there were no expectations, there was no complaint.

    I was just making an observation that confirmed a previous observation.
    That's all.

    I have a good idea of your intentions behind your statement (and you gave me a lot more to work off than I gave you).

    But, I'm a little more careful about being presumptuous in such situations and rather give you the benefit of the doubt.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #165
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    There is a "we" in the case of minors. Girls as young as ten and sometimes even younger.

    I know I can't convince you because you see the fetuses life as trumping everything. However I think these girls and women have a right not to go through with a pregnancy they have no responsibility in creating. I think it would be heroic to do so but not a moral obligation. I think I have a right not to have my body used for other people's purposes including bring a child into the world. And for minors who can't understand most of this I think their bodies should not be used by adults to secure our values.


    A for your scenario I think you would have to tweak to address adult women and minors. for adults the other person is inadvertently doing the torturing and their survival depends on my survival. I think at that point it becomes murky, which is my point.

    Or it like asking, would you torque a child to save someone's life. I think then the responsibility for the loss of life falls on the rapist and not on the child or the adults helping her.
    I'm not going to argue this anymore, because you just don't understand the basics of agency. You keep mistaking what actually happens with what you feel happens or how you feel the guilt should be distributed. Unfortunately, that's not how the law works. We hold people accountable for their individual actions. When they make a free and voluntary choice (even under duress) they make the choice and are responsible for the choice. Nobody is making that choice for them.

    If a man on a life boat kills and eats another man to stay alive then he is the one who did the killing and not the drunken sea captain who wrecked the boat. We hold the castaway responsible for his own actions despite his dire circumstances.

    I find it interesting that even though you would support a pro-life position in other situations you use the term "fetus" which effectively dehumanizes the child. I wonder if you actually believe the child is a person in the first place.

    By the way, it's not like I don't have any concern for the victim. I don't think abortion solves their problem and I think it can make it worst. Moreover, abortion is often used by by incestuous child molesters to cover up what they've done which means the abortion makes it possible for these young girls to continue to be raped and puts others at risk.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #166
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    There is a "we" in the case of minors. Girls as young as ten and sometimes even younger.

    I know I can't convince you because you see the fetuses life as trumping everything. However I think these girls and women have a right not to go through with a pregnancy they have no responsibility in creating. I think it would be heroic to do so but not a moral obligation. I think I have a right not to have my body used for other people's purposes including bring a child into the world. And for minors who can't understand most of this I think their bodies should not be used by adults to secure our values.


    A for your scenario I think you would have to tweak to address adult women and minors. for adults the other person is inadvertently doing the torturing and their survival depends on my survival. I think at that point it becomes murky, which is my point.

    Or it like asking, would you torque a child to save someone's life. I think then the responsibility for the loss of life falls on the rapist and not on the child or the adults helping her.
    I'm not going to argue this anymore, because you just don't understand the basics of agency. You keep mistaking what actually happens with what you feel happens or how you feel the guilt should be distributed. Unfortunately, that's not how the law works. We hold people accountable for their individual actions. When they make a free and voluntary choice (even under duress) they make the choice and are responsible for the choice. Nobody is making that choice for them.

    If a man on a life boat kills and eats another man to stay alive then he is the one who did the killing and not the drunken sea captain who wrecked the boat. We hold the castaway responsible for his own actions despite his dire circumstances.

    I find it interesting that even though you would support a pro-life position in other situations you use the term "fetus" which effectively dehumanizes the child. I wonder if you actually believe the child is a person in the first place.

    By the way, it's not like I don't have any concern for the victim. I don't think abortion solves their problem and I think it can make it worst. Moreover, abortion is often used by by incestuous child molesters to cover up what they've done which means the abortion makes it possible for these young girls to continue to be raped and puts others at risk.

    Btw, If it were illegal I wouldn't actually want any rape victims who did have an abortion to actually receive any punishment or even be prosecuted.

    Edit: pseudo, feel free to respond, but others should know I'm done with this topic and won't respond to any replies
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #167
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    I'm not going to argue this anymore, because you just don't understand the basics of agency. You keep mistaking what actually happens with what you feel happens or how you feel the guilt should be distributed. Unfortunately, that's not how the law works. We hold people accountable for their individual actions. When they make a free and voluntary choice (even under duress) they make the choice and are responsible for the choice. Nobody is making that choice for them.

    If a man on a life boat kills and eats another man to stay alive then he is the one who did the killing and not the drunken sea captain who wrecked the boat. We hold the castaway responsible for his own actions despite his dire circumstances.

    I find it interesting that even though you would support a pro-life position in other situations you use the term "fetus" which effectively dehumanizes the child. I wonder if you actually believe the child is a person in the first place.

    By the way, it's not like I don't have any concern for the victim. I don't think abortion solves their problem and I think it can make it worst. Moreover, abortion is often used by by incestuous child molesters to cover up what they've done which means the abortion makes it possible for these young girls to continue to be raped and puts others at risk.
    I think we're ate having a misunderstanding because I'm not looking at this from a perspective of the law or what should be legal. But more my perspective on it morally.


    Again I don't think a ten year old girl is capable of making a "free and voluntary choice" about having her rapists baby. Maybe you would hold the sailor responsible, maybe the law would. But does that mean it's the correct thing? I would argue no.


    I think fetus is the correct word you use to describe a human at certain point in life. I recognize it as a life but is it fully human in the way I am? Is destroying an zygote moments after conception the same as shooting a man? It's not as obvious to me as it seems to be to you . I think though that this could be sort of a forswen disagreement since you are arguing that it's a yes or no question and I'm arguing against that.


    As for the last paragraph it think again it's conflating the law with just the discussion of the overall morality. Something can be used in a bad way with out making it intrinsically bad. I for one am not so sure that having a ten year old go through labor and give birth would be better than having her get an abortion. Or which emotional trauma would be worse going ahead. I'm guessing the labor because the girl would be more aware of what was happening and it would probably do more damage to her body.

  8. #168
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    I can't believe I have been asked to explain why I don't participate in these kinds of threads very often.

    Here's a quick rundown of thoughts:

    1- Debate for the sake of debate is boring to me and I also know that I am not very good at it.
    2- Free exchange of ideas only works if both parties have this as their goal.
    3- The concept that anyone is going to change their mind about hot button, fundamental to each person's personal life code thingy topics such as religion or politics because of someone's carefully crafted logically irrefutable posts on the internet is hilariously naive in its inception.
    4- I don't agree with the opinions of some left leaning individuals on the forum, and I don't agree with the methods of some right leaning individuals on the forum.
    5- I can predict within two seconds of a thread's creation how the interactions are going to go down. I don't need to reexperience the horror over and over again like some tragic victim of neurodegenerative diseases.
    6- These threads have a shocking lack of pudding.
    Last edited by Anew Leaf; 12-01-2012 at 11:20 AM. Reason: spelling... meh!

  9. #169
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Measuring life against life is a difficult situation that most pro-lifers recognize, but they are concerned about poorly worded health of the mother exceptions being used as a loop hole.

    Concerns about children of rape and young girls based purely on emotion and have no basis in rationality as nobody's emotional state or status of being a victim justifies murder as we already established the child is a person.
    "We" have established no such thing. You may believe that an unborn child is a person, in as full a sense as you or I, but that is a belief. It is based in emotion far more than are concerns about the physical and mental health of young girls forced into pregnancy. You are welcome to your beliefs, but not to force them upon others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    If a man on a life boat kills and eats another man to stay alive then he is the one who did the killing and not the drunken sea captain who wrecked the boat. We hold the castaway responsible for his own actions despite his dire circumstances.

    I find it interesting that even though you would support a pro-life position in other situations you use the term "fetus" which effectively dehumanizes the child. I wonder if you actually believe the child is a person in the first place.
    The idea of agency speaks to justice and legal responsibility. I am more interested in practical solutions. How would your lifeboat example play out if the one man survived by refusing to share his food and water, causing the other to die? To the extent that the unborn child is dependent on its mother for the means of survival, this is a more fair comparison.

    You have made plain the extent to which you would go (and insist others go) to ensure each child survives to be born. Does this include making sure each mother gets adequate nutrition and prenatal care, or is it OK for a child to die though preventable "natural causes"? How far would you go to ensure that child's survival after birth?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    "We" have established no such thing. You may believe that an unborn child is a person, in as full a sense as you or I, but that is a belief. It is based in emotion far more than are concerns about the physical and mental health of young girls forced into pregnancy. You are welcome to your beliefs, but not to force them upon others.
    Does the tiny tot have a heartbeat?

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