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  1. #51
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    I did this exactly one year ago. My job paid me roughly $60k a year would top out at about $75k and had really good health, vision, and dental insurance as well as a retirement plan (a fixed pension + annuity). The work was mind numbingly retarded and STRESSFUL AS FUCK and I hated it. To be honest, I don't think I could have done it for 25 more years in order to get my retirement (I still have some in my annuity) and I was concerned about long term job prospects in the industry as more and more technology in the industry seemed to cut back on the number of workers required. I wanted something that I could be HAPPY and FULFILLED with. Right now, it blows as I am a broke ass student forced to survive on Top Ramen, but in a few years mark my words I WILL BE BACK BITCHES D:
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  2. #52
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phobik View Post
    I'm not familiar with neither the avg salary per industry nor with the politics/culture regarding career progression, so I'm not sure what you mean by 60k being the end and if it is related to your current job/what industry that is in/just a government paper work job. I do recall seeing the newsblast that Germany engineering shortage still being an issue, covered recently withing the scope of the current economic situation and Angela Merkle's visit here, and read online that there were laws changes dropping salaries paid to expats from 60k to 40k, [which seems counter-intuitive], while ppl's comments is that there is only shortage for low-pay ppl, but that there are plenty of skilled professionals that just command a higher salary, so it's all just some attempt to draw in cheap technical labor. Idk how much of this holds true, or how it aligns with the insider perspective you may have.
    You can be an employee for the government or you can be a civil servant for the gov. The difference is the latter one doesnt have to pay taxes. The 'not have to pay tax' idea had the simple background that they are paid from taxes, so it would look stupid if they'd have to pay their job giver something back. But the thing got perverted and salary got very high for civil servants plus the labor unions pushed for extremly ridicoulos salary courses. So the average civil servant nowadays can earn around 4500 euro netto a month. An employee tho is topped at 60k brutto, which would be around 2500 netto a month. Thats at least concerning work in the civil service.

    Regarding the rest of what you said: absolutely true. It's a secret which is slowly revealing itself in my country as well. The average person here tho is way too good-natured to understand the pragmatic reasoning of industry. If you are a damn good engineer, you'll get a job but many engineers are jobless and the so called skills shortage is just an excuse to draw in cheap labor force. With Europes people struggling and moving to Germany, industry finds enough people short of alternatives, which they pay a joke under the premise that foreign people 'dont have german know-how'.

    Many people know my country for socialism and hospitable people, what is true but not many know the industrial pragmatism, which is here where I live every time a lot of steps ahead from the rest of the World. But pride goes before the fall.

    This would be another reason why working in the industry needs consideration. Cause it will turn you into a machine yourself in the long run...

    The only real hope for an engineer lies in family businesses. We have a quadrizillion entrepreneurs in this country running very fair and workers oriented family businesses. But you wont earn there as much as with the great companies and many engineers dont try their luck there. Those businesses are really struggling from workers shortage cause they need people they have to introduce into the companies philosophy and business for years and are dependant on them for years to come. They need very loyal people which they can entrust with their know-how. Most engineers tho just hop to the next best paid job and the smaller companies lack good workers.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #53
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I did this exactly one year ago. My job paid me roughly $60k a year would top out at about $75k and had really good health, vision, and dental insurance as well as a retirement plan (a fixed pension + annuity). The work was mind numbingly retarded and STRESSFUL AS FUCK and I hated it. To be honest, I don't think I could have done it for 25 more years in order to get my retirement (I still have some in my annuity) and I was concerned about long term job prospects in the industry as more and more technology in the industry seemed to cut back on the number of workers required. I wanted something that I could be HAPPY and FULFILLED with. Right now, it blows as I am a broke ass student forced to survive on Top Ramen, but in a few years mark my words I WILL BE BACK BITCHES D:
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  4. #54
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    2200 euro is ok to live off ? Did you already become arrogant with ur TVL-13 job ? No seriously 2200 is actually very much, where I come from people have to live from 1200 euro netto.
    Well, it's okay if you need to support your girlfriend and, eventually, a child. If you were single, it would be a lot of money, definitely. Besides, ALL my colleagues (even those with much higher seniority) complain about their TV-L 13 and 14 salaries!

    My education at the moment: I have a 3 year education for an apprenticeship as an electrician and a Bachelor degree in mechanical engineering. I have been working for 1 year on my master in mechanical but switched to a master in electrical engineering, cause mechanical bored the shit out of me. I am good with everything regarding computers (CAD design, C-programming and embedded programming), I have a penchant for mechanics and harmonics analysis and I can spend hours developing electrical circuits. What I am not so good at is communications engineering, thermodynamics or complex software engineering. So my field would be automation and robotics / embedded systems design. I am currently working in politics and my job requires nearly only networking and organisational skills. The job is pretty chill and values all my ideas, some people already depend on my ideas, but I am missing the technical side a lot. I am working more like a civil engineer or statesperson. My technical intrest has majorly been focussed to hobbies for me the past years. The University stuff I have been doing with a parttime job and since last year I am doing it with a fulltime job, so for the last 4 years you can say, I've been working a 60+ week. It's a lot and I am very exhausted.
    Mmm, yeah, doing a master's in engineering while working full-time isn't easy at all. How many exams do you still have to take? ´Cause when you will reach the thesis, then you are pretty much free to do what you want.
    I don't know if your university offers such a thing, but perhaps it would be interesting to apply to some technical positions as someone who wants to write a thesis on that specific subject? I know they directly hire some people coming out of BWL and Logistics who go through this process; since you're experienced, it would likely be even easier, I would hazard.

    But yes I guess you have a point about the big companies thingy, it might not be the most pleasant atmosphere...

    The company in which I did my internship offered me a position in sales after I finished my project there. I didnt take it cause it would have meant to work a 90+ hours week with a lot of nights in hotels. And I hadnt had the energy at that time.
    Sales isn't a technical position anyway, so I think you totally made the right choice...

    Btw, wondering about this: aren't most really good small-and-medium sized german enterprises concentrated in the deep south? (schwaben-franken-bayern) Maybe there is something in Sauerland & Westfalen?
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #55
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well, it's okay if you need to support your girlfriend and, eventually, a child. If you were single, it would be a lot of money, definitely. Besides, ALL my colleagues (even those with much higher seniority) complain about their TV-L 13 and 14 salaries!
    Yea you are right, as the lone family supporter its quite slim. My gf is a nurse in an ICU and tho she is working parttime without her salary I'ld already long had to change my job. But complaining about things is actually very german. They complain about everything you can complain about. When you have reached that point, you can call yourself home (tho I hope you wont ever have to get there).


    Mmm, yeah, doing a master's in engineering while working full-time isn't easy at all. How many exams do you still have to take? ´Cause when you will reach the thesis, then you are pretty much free to do what you want.
    I don't know if your university offers such a thing, but perhaps it would be interesting to apply to some technical positions as someone who wants to write a thesis on that specific subject? I know they directly hire some people coming out of BWL and Logistics who go through this process; since you're experienced, it would likely be even easier, I would hazard.
    Yes, since lately I am having sensors online. An University job is great, I dunno tho if I am really made for it. I definitly have to get out of the office from time and crawl into an machine and loose some screws. Tho if you would find a practical project at University it would be great and I could combine it with my master thesis. For the thesis I guess I'll need about one more year.

    Btw, wondering about this: aren't most really good small-and-medium sized german enterprised concentrated in the deep south? (schwaben-franken-bayern) Maybe there is something in Sauerland & Westfalen?
    Yes, regarding industry output the row is as follows: 1.Bavaria, 2.NRW, 3.Swabia

    The deep South or 'dark Germany' has a lot of big OEMs and car manufacturers. NRW has no direct own car manufacturers (the three which are here are Opel, Ford and Mercedes light-duty cars), so they lack own ones. Still we are place second with a lot of Hidden Champions. For example in Hattingen there is a global player called 'Dorma' they build automatic doors and hold around 98% market shares in the World. They lately had some huge projects in Dubai. This company alone pays the whole city with about 55k citizens.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #56
    Honor Thy Inferior Such Irony's Avatar
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    I think its variant related. I guess SX variants would be more likely to follow their dream at the expense of job security while SP variants would be most prone to staying for many years in the same secure job even if there were more interesting things out there.
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  7. #57
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The number is definitly right when you consider all of Germany. But the Ruhr Area where I am coming from is a very poor region. If I was to move to Bavaria or Swabia the wager would be way better. In eastern Germany it would be even worser than at my location.

    I have grown up in a very poor environment and dont have high-flung dreams like yachts or I dont even own a car at the moment. So 2200 € is in comparison with the people I call my friends around here very much. FDG is right tho that this is the median entry fee for an engineer for the first 2 years and then you get very bold raises and find yourself around 60 - 80 k quickly in a year. In my current job 60 k would be the end for me, as long as they wouldnt make me a civil servant. Then the netto income goes way up high.
    There's a lot of potential in the Rurh though. But yeah, all the industry attracts many people making it hard on workers to find proper jobs and as a result, salaries tend to be minimum. As in, you dont agree with the salary? Too bad, there's plenty waiting in line!
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  8. #58
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    Well, I left a very secure job at the tail end of 2008, at the start of the recession, knowing it wasn't in theory the 'wisest' thing to do, and without a dream (jobwise) to follow, but it was the culmination of my realizing I didn't want to live where I was for the rest of my life, and wanted to go somewhere new. It was essential for me to do this on a personal/soul level... I would have died a slow death otherwise and would have been very unhappy otherwise -- which in the long run I wasn't willing to do - it could be argued I 'couldn't' do it, too, otherwise I wouldn't have felt such an intrinsic need to throw caution to the wind and move onwards.

    So I think if you have that inner compulsion, to go ahead and do it. Things typically work out one way or another, especially with perserverence and if you know there may be rough patches and aren't expecting everything to just fall into your lap. If you're like me, you'd have savings prior to doing it, on the offchance it takes a fair amount of time to get a new job, but... if you have the means/opportunity, I think there's a lot to it.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  9. #59
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Yes, since lately I am having sensors online. An University job is great, I dunno tho if I am really made for it. I definitly have to get out of the office from time and crawl into an machine and loose some screws. Tho if you would find a practical project at University it would be great and I could combine it with my master thesis. For the thesis I guess I'll need about one more year.
    I didn't mean exactly that - more like checking out if a given teacher-professor has some connections in nearby firms, where he may send you to write an "innovative" thesis of your liking and you could later work on similar projects as an employee of the firm. You need to be lucky, but still, I know people who managed to follow this route. Otherwise, I always have this impression (maybe wrong) that going through the route of sending CV-interview-2nd interview etc. you will end up doing some random administrative work.

    But yeah, all the industry attracts many people making it hard on workers to find proper jobs and as a result, salaries tend to be minimum. As in, you dont agree with the salary? Too bad, there's plenty waiting in line!
    Still, I think the salaries for qualified people (which entropie is, givent hat he's got both a degree and experience) are not that bad, even though the unemployment is really high for german standards.
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  10. #60
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    As long as you don't have children or not planning on having children anytime soon, follow your dream!

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