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  1. #31
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    I don't feel repulsed.

  2. #32
    heart on fire
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    What an awful idea. Also who will care for these animals after they have served and they are old and pee themselves and take a lot of care? Just put them down and move on?

  3. #33
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    I'm glad you're not repulsed Dana... I just don't understand this at all, I don't relate to it. I would hate for someone to dislike me because of not having the same feelings in this matter.

    But my final word on this...

    :rolli:

    Seriously, it seems like you're all completely immune to reason in this matter. Your fancy ordered you, and you obeyed.

    You're not even trying to justify yourselves, just demanding legal protection and restriction based on sentiment that is totally devoid of understanding or consequence.

    I don't know how I should trust such whim-driven people who need no justification other than their own sentiments to decide what actions should be restricted and permitted. I'm quite... disturbed by this.

    I won't argue anymore... it's clearly futile.

    I apologize if this is offensive, I'm just reeling from the sheer incomprehensibility of this. I can't take it. It's all coming from nowhere, and scaring me that you feel so strongly about something so rootless.

  4. #34
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    Cats and Dogs are a special case in the animal kingdom. We've bred them to be dependent on us and they give a special kind of love and service to us and as a species we crap all over them and throw them away daily. It's really awful what is done.

  5. #35
    will make your day Carebear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    What I'm saying is, isn't a big part of what makes physical pain so traumatic for us the emotional element? The pain itself is just... pain. An indicator that there is a problem. It comes and goes. But the emotions associated with it, those are what make it so much worse.
    Hm... I think this is at the core of the disagreement here. I agree with you on this Athenian. So in this case we judge by the same criteria. And get to opposite conclusions. Which means we start with different assumptions.

    You don't attribute anthropomorhic qualities to dogs. I do.

    I'll try to explain why I don't think it's irrational to do so:
    I don't see humans and animals as fundamentally different as we're both products of evolution and have evolved from the same early mammals. In other words I don't believe there is a binary answer to whether something is sentient or not. It's a question of more or less (and if evolution continues until the end of this planet, our own level of sentience could be considered low/different by later versions of "humanity").

    If I can recognize primitive versions of human thoughts/feelings/phenomena in animals, I don't think it's wrong to anthropomorphize to some degree the animal in question. Sure you could say it's just instinct and biology, but unless you believe in a separate human "soul", humans are governed by the same (just more advanced versions). Sure we rationalize and try to explain some of our instincts etc, but when you see the same actions and patterns in primates and other advanced mammals, it's more natural to accept that we're more instinctual than we'd like to think.

    Dogs (and other advanced mammals) have several traits that make me feel they should be treated more like humans. They clearly have primitive feelings. Happiness, sadness, playfulness, fear, insecurity, anxiety, anger etc. and they go between the states much the same way a human would. They have the ability to develop psychological scars, phobias and compulsive behavior and so on. They can learn and solve tasks in creative ways (by reasoning out ways of solving problems that they haven't been taught the solution to.) IOW they share much of our emotional responses to life, just at a more primitive level. (They even exhibit introversion/extroversion, object focus/social focus etc.)

    And with this assumption going into the criteria above, you can see why my conclusion turns out differently.
    I have arms for a fucking reaosn, so come hold me. Then we'll fuvk! Whoooooh! - GZA

  6. #36
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carebear View Post
    Hm... I think this is at the core of the disagreement here. I agree with you on this Athenian. So in this case we judge by the same criteria. And get to opposite conclusions. Which means we start with different assumptions.

    You don't attribute anthropomorhic qualities to dogs. I do.

    I'll try to explain why I don't think it's irrational to do so:
    I don't see humans and animals as fundamentally different as we're both products of evolution and have evolved from the same early mammals. In other words I don't believe there is a binary answer to whether something is sentient or not. It's a question of more or less (and if evolution continues until the end of this planet, our own level of sentience could be considered low/different by later versions of "humanity").

    If I can recognize primitive versions of human thoughts/feelings/phenomena in animals, I don't think it's wrong to anthropomorphize to some degree the animal in question. Sure you could say it's just instinct and biology, but unless you believe in a separate human "soul", humans are governed by the same (just more advanced versions). Sure we rationalize and try to explain some of our instincts etc, but when you see the same actions and patterns in primates and other advanced mammals, it's more natural to accept that we're more instinctual than we'd like to think.

    Dogs (and other advanced mammals) have several traits that make me feel they should be treated more like humans. They clearly have primitive feelings. Happiness, sadness, playfulness, fear, insecurity, anxiety, anger etc. and they go between the states much the same way a human would. They have the ability to develop psychological scars, phobias and compulsive behavior and so on. They can learn and solve tasks in creative ways (by reasoning out ways of solving problems that they haven't been taught the solution to.) IOW they share much of our emotional responses to life, just at a more primitive level. (They even exhibit introversion/extroversion, object focus/social focus etc.)

    And with this assumption going into the criteria above, you can see why my conclusion turns out differently.
    Now, this is a reasonable argument. Exactly what I was looking for.

    Actually, heart happened to mention the same thing in PM yesterday when I asked what was going on in your minds that you all would have such an unreasonable reaction.

    Apparently with both of you, at least, this idea is the influence... that their brains are complex enough to process emotional pain in a similar way as we do (possibly even experiencing it with more intensity due to having less neocortex area to distract themselves or separate themselves from it). And based on your own observations and studies of their brain's structure, you believe this to be viable and likely. Based on what both of you have stated, I consider your judgment on this basis valid.

    There was also an argument that we "owe" dogs and cats in particular a responsibility because we as humans deprived them of the ability to live autonomously via breeding, and took away most of their natural habitat. If the first argument works (experiencing pain and emotion at a similar level as humans despite their lesser intellect), then this second one may be viable in some form as well.

    So, congratulations. You have provided what I needed.

    Although I am still somewhat irritated with everyone else who responded... that all you did was express feelings in response to my arguments, without dealing with the issues I raised, and acted as if those feelings were justification in themselves, worthy to strike out all my arguments and positions. You refused to even attempt to make an argument or defend your position, demanding that I respond to your emotions, citing them as your only defense, and behaving as if I were the one with the problem if I didn't happen to share them, and that was that.

    The rest of you have much to learn if you think your feelings justify everything. I can hardly believe that there was a valid argument there, and all you could bring yourselves to do was... basically whine at me.

  7. #37
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post

    Although I am still somewhat irritated with everyone else who responded... that all you did was express feelings in response to my arguments, without dealing with the issues I raised, and acted as if those feelings were justification in themselves, worthy to strike out all my arguments and positions. You refused to even attempt to make an argument or defend your position, demanding that I respond to your emotions, citing them as your only defense, and behaving as if I were the one with the problem if I didn't happen to share them, and that was that.

    The rest of you have much to learn if you think your feelings justify everything. I can hardly believe that there was a valid argument there, and all you could bring yourselves to do was... basically whine at me.

    Instead of wholesale criticism, I'd recommend naming the individuals/arguments for whom your frustration is greatest.

    If you want to move beyond your irritation, this seems like a reasonable first step.

    Otherwise, you're simply squealing to the rooftops.

  8. #38
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Instead of wholesale criticism, I'd recommend naming those ideas/arguments for whom your frustration is greatest.

    If you want to move beyond your irritation, this seems like a reasonable first step.

    Otherwise, you're simply squealing to the rooftops.
    I'd rather not. I don't see any need to single them out and alienate them since it's all been dealt with now. So I figured that a collective criticism would be a good release, especially since none of the previous things said even remotely addressed any of my points (and was actually somewhat irritated with everyone as a result).

    EDIT: Actually, going back now, it appears you tried to articulate something like this at one point (although you didn't elaborate enough for me to catch your meaning, since you only mentioned the nervous system and nerve sensitivity, and didn't explain that you believed they also had some measure of emotions due to their brain's structure which would make this pain meaningful). Still, no one else even mentioned it or tried to explain.

    Feel free to disregard the chastisement at the end, it's an expression of irritation, and has already passed.

    Thank you for the advice and concern, though.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    On the other hand, these are living, thinking beings. A dog is not an inanimate toy. ASPCA experts say its not good for the dogs well being and I'm inclined to believe them.
    Anyone who knows anything about dogs would agree with this.

    Dogs are pack animals. To constantly shift them from one place to another, and from one set of people to another would be traumatizing.

    I can't wait till one of them snaps and mauls a renting person.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Although I am still somewhat irritated with everyone else who responded... that all you did was express feelings in response to my arguments, without dealing with the issues I raised, and acted as if those feelings were justification in themselves, worthy to strike out all my arguments and positions. You refused to even attempt to make an argument or defend your position, demanding that I respond to your emotions, citing them as your only defense, and behaving as if I were the one with the problem if I didn't happen to share them, and that was that.
    Here is the problem with your arguments: the premise they were based upon is flawed. Hence, all your arguments were flawed.

  10. #40
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Here is the problem with your arguments: the premise they were based upon is flawed. Hence, all your arguments were flawed.
    Then why would no one point out the flawed premise? Normally if you believe someone's premise is flawed, you point that out and show why it's flawed (as Carebear did)... right?

    Also, they made no arguments at all.

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