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  1. #21
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Athenian, this post ^ makes it seem as though you see every action in life as a means to an end.
    Not every action. I just don't see the need to apply so much morality to an animal. It's completely unreasonable.
    Humans are different from animals. Animals act out of instinct.. Humans.. they have an ego. This goes both ways--they can feel compelled to help those in need and they can feel compelled to hurt those whom have wronged them. Animals cannot do this.
    This is a statement, probably based on fact. What am I supposed to infer from it except what it says?
    Do you believe that humans cannot want to do something good simply because they feel so compelled and don't have thoughts such as "Oh, well if I stop this man from raping her, she won't be fucked up and she might make me a sandwich one day at Subway!"
    They can do good things for both reasons, Dana. But once again, I don't see the connection.

    All the arguments so far are just thinly veiled expressions of personal sentiments, not arguments that show any negative consequences arising from it.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    As an easy counterweight, dogs have a fully functional Nervous System which, like ours, is responsible for transmitting adverse physical stimuli (pain; discomfort) to the brain.

    Dogs have been observed to dislike pain.

    As such, I think they deserve at least a basic level of anthropomorphic respect.
    Holy crap, was that putting it lightly or what? (I realize that was the point.)

    Live with a few, Athenian, you'll see that many animals have better personalities than some people you know. They're more worth saving as well.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Gen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Not every action. I just don't see the need to apply so much morality to an animal. It's completely unreasonable.


    This is a statement, probably based on fact. What am I supposed to infer from it except what it says?


    They can do good things for both reasons, Dana. But once again, I don't see the connection.

    All the arguments so far are just thinly veiled expressions of personal sentiments, not arguments that show any negative consequences arising from it.
    In other words: They cannot protect themselves; we must protect them instead.

  4. #24
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I just don't see the need to apply so much morality to an animal. It's completely unreasonable.
    I just don't get you. :steam:

    Refer to Night's post about the central nervous system.

    *storms off in an INFP huff*

  5. #25
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Well, the same could be said for me, Athenian. I don't know you; haven't given you money and I submit that I can occasionally be irritating.

    Does my benefit decline along this basis?


    No. You are a part of this message board, and posting on this message board represents nothing more than a hobby I am obsessed with. You have no benefit to me personally, but you do benefit society by being a contributing member. You benefit this message board by offering your arguments. You can do valuable things with valuable skills animals don't possess. Society benefits me, and hence anyone who benefits any part of society indirectly, benefits me, meaning I am concerned with them. There may be more to it than that, since I can become accustomed, familiar, attached to certain people, but that's why I would value a stranger.



    As an easy counterweight, dogs have a fully functional Nervous System which, like ours, is responsible for transmitting adverse physical stimuli (pain; discomfort) to the brain.

    Dogs have been observed to dislike pain.

    As such, I think they deserve at least a basic level of anthropomorphic respect.
    Duh, everyone dislikes pain. Even insects run away from discomfort. Can you prove that the same level of sensitivity to pain on that level, indicates that pain has the same level of meaning for them as it does for us? If they cannot feel or think with the same depth, then it simply comes, is reacted to, and passes much differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    Is that why you feel a need to protect a baby? (Providing, of course, that you do.) Is it because you know that someday it needs to be a contributing member of society and society, above all else, is what matters? Or is it because it is a defenseless being with thoughts and feelings all its own?

    Personally, I have more empathy for animals.
    I think both reasons are valid. But you don't know dogs have significant thoughts or feelings. I've seen no evidence of that.


    Maybe the illusion of companionship. Maybe just entertainment, like a frisbee. *shudders*

    I don't think it's evil; just a malformed idea.
    Malformed in what sense, if they can profit from it?

    I can see it being malformed if it is unprofitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gen View Post
    In other words: They cannot protect themselves; we must protect them instead.
    Who decided they were worthy of protection? People kill and eat animals every day, and yet some obsess over the feelings of one group of them, while happily eating the others. It's absurd to be so inconsistent.

    Seriously, this is laughable. These arguments are laughable. Are you all part of some joke you haven't told me about? I know you people are smarter than this.

  6. #26
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Duh, everyone dislikes pain. Even insects run away from discomfort. Can you prove that the same level of sensitivity to pain on that level, indicates that pain has the same level of meaning for them as it does for us? If they cannot feel or think with the same depth, then it simply comes, is reacted to, and passes much differently.
    What? If you're referring to physical pain, then this makes no sense at all.

  7. #27
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    I like you, Athenian.

    I think many of your ideas are well-explored and professionally detailed. Some (perhaps more than simply some) of them will likely forever remain lost to me.


    Were I to offer you a parcel of advice, I'd encourage you to remain open to possibility - beyond the scope of our limited online message board. Life is expansive; profound beyond thought.

    Close your eyes and it's gone for good.
    A lack of perceived utility does not necessarily suggest a lack of apparent worth.

    On the contrary, it could simply indicate a failure of creativity.

  8. #28
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    What? If you're referring to physical pain, then this makes no sense at all.
    What I'm saying is, isn't a big part of what makes physical pain so traumatic for us the emotional element? The pain itself is just... pain. An indicator that there is a problem. It comes and goes. But the emotions associated with it, those are what make it so much worse.

  9. #29
    mrs disregard's Avatar
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    Most humans experience a significant degree of discomfort when witnessing another in dire physical pain.

    Granted, some don't, due to prejudice (slavery & how slaves were abused, for example) or some other screw-up in their head, but it's pretty common to not be able to bear the thought of another in physical pain. People's faces screw up, their bodies contort, and they sort of experience it in their minds themselves.

    The emotional part... I hadn't even considered..

    It's like not caring if a dog was set on fire, just because a dog won't (in your perception) have an emotional scar from the incident.

  10. #30
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dana View Post
    Most humans experience a significant degree of discomfort when witnessing another in dire physical pain.
    I do experience that with another human being, yes. It's due to empathy.

    I'm experiencing discomfort right now because you feel so repulsed by my position, and I wish you understood.
    The emotional part... I hadn't even considered..

    It's like not caring if a dog was set on fire, just because a dog won't (in your perception) have an emotional scar from the incident.
    I would feel that if a person were, but not if a dog were. I just don't feel anything for dogs. Honestly, I don't trust dogs the way most people do. I mean, they're not reasonable. They just go on instinct, instinct inherited from wolves, animals that wouldn't think twice about killing a person.

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