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  1. #1
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Default when to hold 'em? when to fold 'em?

    I am interested hearing stories of past disagreements. What was the disagreement about? What compelled you to challenge the other person? How did you win or lose the debate/argument? Or why did you decided winning wasn't worth the trouble?

  2. #2
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    I challenge when the situation matters, I think I can be persuasive, and I'm pretty sure that I'm right.

    That first one is important--winning isn't worth the trouble when the outcome doesn't actually have much of an effect. A slight temporary boost in self-confidence isn't usually enough for me to pursue 'winning.' Besides, one might win for the wrong reasons--like shutting the other person down with intimidation and stubbornness rather than actually listening to and processing their ideas. Winning isn't everything. Or, at least, we 'win the battle and lose the war' much more often than we think.

    There are a whole fat lot of subjects that I have strong opinions on, but I don't bother to enter certain discussions/debates on them because I'm not going to persuade anyone, learn anything, or otherwise change anything. Political pundits just look ridiculous, man, and so do people who huff and puff about everything.

    When I discuss, whether I win or lose I try focus on the sense of accomplishment that derives from having asserting myself, stirring the pot up a bit, and learning something.

  3. #3
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Right, I understand your method. I am curious about actual occurrences. You mentioned politics. Specifically which issues, your stance and reasoning, their stance and reasoning, and the point when you gave up, loss, or won. I'm not going to judge. I just want to observe.

  4. #4
    meinmeinmein! mmhmm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    Right, I understand your method. I am curious about actual occurrences. You mentioned politics. Specifically which issues, your stance and reasoning, their stance and reasoning, and the point when you gave up, loss, or won. I'm not going to judge. I just want to observe.
    gosh that's a lot of homework. are you a teacher? or an essay question?
    every normal man must be tempted, at times,
    to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag,
    and begin slitting throats.
    h.l. mencken

  5. #5
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    Right, I understand your method. I am curious about actual occurrences. You mentioned politics. Specifically which issues, your stance and reasoning, their stance and reasoning, and the point when you gave up, loss, or won. I'm not going to judge. I just want to observe.
    I guess I'm not talking along the lines of traditional 'win/lose' debates.

    When I discuss with someone, my goal is to get the best ideas out there that we can--which, for me, usually means bridging the emotional gap between the two of us, establishing trust so that our 'defenses' are lowered, getting in sync, and then having a discussion. That, or saying my piece and simply letting the other person mull over it and determine whether it's true from their perspective. So there's not a whole fat lot of winning, losing, or giving up for me.

    I internally probe at, say, questions like: Are we starting from the same set of facts/axioms? Are their facts on target, irrespective of how well they logically piece them together? Where's the discrepancy behind our core assumptions, anyway?

    I mention politics only because pundits are a great example of those who magnify trivial issues with some insanely distorted lens. It's virtually worthless to discuss anything with people who are hardheaded. (Well, I take that back. There's some entertainment value that comes out of it..)


    Although, if I think of any good examples of debates, I'll post about 'em.

  6. #6
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmhmm View Post
    gosh that's a lot of homework. are you a teacher? or an essay question?
    It doesnt have to be long. For example:
    Topic: My friend and I were discussing real estate investments.
    Relationship: He and I went to undergrad and grad school together and hangout all the time.

    My stance and premise: I do lots of due diligence before I make an investment and view investment properties purely from financial perspective (I have no intentions to ever live or want to vacation there). I will only invest if logic and data suggest it has high probability of success. It is hard to evaluate objective and subjective values at the same time. You do one or the other. After the fact, you can consider the other value.
    His stance and premise:"... I want to make a play on the anomalies though of what just happened to real estate in the boom areas... i have full belief that flordia and california and areas like las vegas will return with the crazy home prices again... it would be a vacation property too"

    My argument to him: (I didnt point it out, but he is looking at FL/CA/Vegas bc they are cool places.) I looked up demographics data, local gov, taxes, utility agency projections, etc. they weren't favorable. they weren't even favorable when the prices were sky rocketing. i attributed big price swings to macro changes in the credit market.
    His argument to me: cycles will repeat themselves.

    I asked why, he said bc they do. I gave up after that.

  7. #7
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Here is another:
    Topic: My roommate and I were discussing cause of increasing health insurance premiums and the need for recent healthcare legislation.
    Relationship/background: Roommates for the past 3 years. I am an engineer and a recent b-school dropout. He is a phamd and in med-school.

    My stance and premise: population dynamics is the primary force driving the increase in health insurance cost. recently, health insurance is beginning to experience an adverse selection market failure. my premise is a bunch of charts, graphs, and logic.
    His stance and premise: health insurance cost increase is due to increase in healthcare cost. health care cost are increasing because of hypochondriacs, poor health practices (obesity, smoking, alcohol, etc. i.e. moral hazard), malpractice lawsuits, and technological innovations.

    My argument to him: those are probably all contributors to increasing healthcare cost, but it doesnt explain the dramatic increase we are observing in health insurance cost. with the exception of obesity, the % of all those things either havent changed or are decreasing over time.
    His stance and premise: his experience in the hospital and observation of patients.

    I found more supporting data and even published articles supporting my position. He repeated his experience and questioned my time spent in hospitals. I pointed out that this is a macro event, and an isolated observation doesnt scale to a macro answer. He repeated his experience and questioned my credentials. I gave up after that.

  8. #8
    Controlled Mischief StephMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pv255 View Post
    I am interested hearing stories of past disagreements. What was the disagreement about? What compelled you to challenge the other person? How did you win or lose the debate/argument? Or why did you decided winning wasn't worth the trouble?
    I don't engage in debates enough, otherwise I'd humor you. And really, the only debates that come to mind are ones I had with you, sooo... I trust it's not necessary I need to make a post about them.
    I have an inner monologue that sounds strikingly similar to something off Animal Planet.

  9. #9
    Unlimited Dancemoves ® AgentF's Avatar
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    i like to debate the big stuff...

    like whether Bert and Ernie really were gay lovers.
    or the Giving Tree: co-dependent, or a model of unconditional love?
    or let's be honest: how many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie roll pop?
    I may be kindly, I am ordinarily gentle, but in my line of business I am obliged to will terribly what I will at all.
    ~ Catherine the Great


    7w6 ❣ sx/so ❤ physical touch ❥ sanguine 70%, choleric 30% ❦

    Johari.

  10. #10
    Senior Member pv255's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StephMC View Post
    I don't engage in debates enough, otherwise I'd humor you. And really, the only debates that come to mind are ones I had with you, sooo... I trust it's not necessary I need to make a post about them.
    bs. i could post lots of our discussions.

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