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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm not averse to descriptions of historical trends being cyclical, it fits with some of what I know about the cycles of generations and what should be the trend of one to challenge, mature, then defend themselves as another generation comes along, although that pattern is fundamentally broken and a lot of generations dont exhibit any learning from other generations, all the learning has to be done afresh, if its done at all and maturation seems to be derailed altogether too.

    I'm also keen on the extent to which things such as nostalgia or fantasy can influence personal and public life, I think its massive, although I dont believe that fiscal conservativism at any time hinges upon any particular childhood experience, it sure wouldnt recreate my childhood, it was the very thing which prevented any of the things you mention as being what anyone could expect in the eighties to have.

    If people recreated their childhoods or teenage years or even late twenties as you say in the UK would have a seriously keynesian mixed economy, some seriously generous benefits universally available, absolutely expenses free university educations accompanied by housing benefits and income support for as many times as you'd like to attend university and study but it doesnt, the reason being that each generation in the UK has consciously done the dirty on the proceeding one and cut back many of the entitlements that they themselves took for granted and even depended upon to get into the posiiton they are in to determine whether or not others can do the same.
    Conservatism was held up to some kind of god-like status in the 80's. Everyone rich, important, socially acceptable was conservative, and it just-so-happened to be a prosperous era that meshed with conservatism.

    So yes, symbolically, in some people's minds I believe they associate the virtues of that decade with their own ability (and everyone's ability) to achieve fiscal success through hard work or education.

    But the world is not the same, it's very difficult to break out of one's class now, even with a degree (unless it's in something useful) and the wealthy are actually paying less taxes than they were then (I can't stress this enough) and nothing is trickling down. So I'm unclear why anyone thinks further fiscal conservatism would help anyone.

  2. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Conservatism was held up to some kind of god-like status in the 80's. Everyone rich, important, socially acceptable was conservative, and it just-so-happened to be a prosperous era that meshed with conservatism.

    So yes, symbolically, in some people's minds I believe they associate the virtues of that decade with their own ability (and everyone's ability) to achieve fiscal success through hard work or education.

    But the world is not the same, it's very difficult to break out of one's class now, even with a degree (unless it's in something useful) and the wealthy are actually paying less taxes than they were then (I can't stress this enough) and nothing is trickling down. So I'm unclear why anyone thinks further fiscal conservatism would help anyone.
    If prosperity existed it was only as a consequence of the boon or legacy created by earlier keynesianism, fiscal conservatism was and is a real serious fantasy, although people prefer that to the reality of their everyday lives and while fiscal conservatives are telling people they really ought to prepare for the day they are rich by voting for them, the alternative, were its not discussing some single issue shit or just promising a more moderate version of fiscal conservative dreams, is offering some sort of mundane happiness which no one will bank on.

  3. #13
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    @Marmotini... I had 7 years of the 80s as my childhood, but grew up in the country, where wealth moves a little slower (and so does everything else... especially if you get stuck behind a tractor on the highway )

    my thinking in part has been shaped by experience though... when you realize that something isn't turning out like you were always taught that it would, do whatever it takes to make it through... as someone who is almost pathologically independent and unable to ask for help even when it would be a good idea I've always been more easily influenced by the idea of "work your ass off and always keep an eye out for an advantage until you get where you want to go" instead of feeling the need to accept any charity or ask anyone to help me out. I willingly work in an industry that is heavily based on merit and competition and that tended to go pretty well in the '80s after all My sis was always the arts type who is highly sensitive and creative and has always admired starving artists who seem to need patrons to survive... needless to say, she's currently living in our guest room and writing poetry on the internet (though I've made her get a job... at an acceptable location... a coffee shop )

    some of it is product of times, some of it is personal characteristics... like nature and nurture
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by whatever View Post
    @Marmotini... I had 7 years of the 80s as my childhood, but grew up in the country, where wealth moves a little slower (and so does everything else... especially if you get stuck behind a tractor on the highway )

    my thinking in part has been shaped by experience though... when you realize that something isn't turning out like you were always taught that it would, do whatever it takes to make it through... as someone who is almost pathologically independent and unable to ask for help even when it would be a good idea I've always been more easily influenced by the idea of "work your ass off and always keep an eye out for an advantage until you get where you want to go" instead of feeling the need to accept any charity or ask anyone to help me out. I willingly work in an industry that is heavily based on merit and competition and that tended to go pretty well in the '80s after all My sis was always the arts type who is highly sensitive and creative and has always admired starving artists who seem to need patrons to survive... needless to say, she's currently living in our guest room and writing poetry on the internet (though I've made her get a job... at an acceptable location... a coffee shop )

    some of it is product of times, some of it is personal characteristics... like nature and nurture
    I grew up in a semi-rural area of West Virginia on 2 acres of land in a log cabin, but then again the capital was only 20 minutes away, so we had an advantage of country living with access to city finance, plus there was a boom of development in that time in that part of the country. I also had relatives the same 20 minutes away who had met the Kennedys (ironically, my wealthiest and most socially prominent relatives in the 80's were liberal, despite all I saw on the television). So I lived kind of a strange childhood where I was sheltered by the country, but not cut off from the city, and lived in a conservative working class branch of my family, but had plenty of common exposure to my more successful and liberal relatives, that internalized all of it.

    The only thing that was shocking to me as an adult were truly large, major cities.

    I still think people believe in a myth that is clearly no longer applicable. People are working hard, but have no health insurance. People are educated, but not working in their field. The wealthy are paying less taxes, but apparently aren't creating these jobs they keep lying about (if only they didn't pay taxes at all???)

    I just don't see the reality of now matching up to what I see as possibly being a symbolic or mythical belief.

  5. #15
    not to be trusted miss fortune's Avatar
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    @Marmotini... reality rarely matches what you always hoped it would be growing up

    I got 3 degrees in college, the only one I really use is a foreign language, which I really honed once I LEFT college and moved to a heavily spanish speaking part of the city... the job I work doesn't require an education at all, but it's a job! As a kid the practicalities of being a grown up don't seem all that apparent... like health insurance, paying the more mundane bills and that some jobs just aren't as fun as you always thought that they might be... kids don't see the big picture. Jobs just aren't something that happens... there has to be someone willing to pay for you to do something in order for the job to exist... things like taxes, job creation and supply and demand are rarely taken into account by teenagers deciding what they hope to do with the rest of their lives (not to mention the parents when they create these kids...) The fact that people are assholes who lie, cheat and steal and make empty promises hasn't sunk in... most parents don't raise their kids to see the darkness in humanity... they don't WANT for them to know about what there is to come... isn't there time for everyone to be innocent I guess?

    I had very little exposure to more urban environments as a kid... my parents weren't particularly social or trustful of the city, nor did we have connections to people who lived anywhere other than the country or smaller towns. I moved to the city on my own upon graduating and am the first person in 2 generations to live in an urban environment! I was raised by liberals of the more rural and possibly tree hugging (and educated) variety... somehow that hasn't changed... though my motivations have

    funny story... I once dated one of the Kennedys (not one of the famous one)... he was a total douche
    “Oh, we're always alright. You remember that. We happen to other people.” -Terry Pratchett

  6. #16
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    I totally agree with you that childhood is a time to be innocent. However when one reaches 25-35 and has the power to kinda sorta determine the way the world works, one should pay attention to what is actually going on, instead of believing in some nostalgic mythological way of being. I'm just wondering how much it has to do with the people who are demanding we need even more extreme fiscal conservatism, when in reality it's not working so well.

    lol @ dating douchey Kennedy

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If prosperity existed it was only as a consequence of the boon or legacy created by earlier keynesianism, fiscal conservatism was and is a real serious fantasy, although people prefer that to the reality of their everyday lives and while fiscal conservatives are telling people they really ought to prepare for the day they are rich by voting for them, the alternative, were its not discussing some single issue shit or just promising a more moderate version of fiscal conservative dreams, is offering some sort of mundane happiness which no one will bank on.
    It's like Mitt Romney saying that the Republican party isn't the party of the rich, it's the party of people who want to be rich.

    Basically, yes, it's a fantasy.

  8. #18
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    Here's an example of how detached from reality the current Republican party has come from it's roots:

    The nation is still recovering from a crushing recession that sent unemployment hovering above nine percent for two straight years. The president, mindful of soaring deficits, is pushing bold action to shore up the nation's balance sheet. Cloaking himself in the language of class warfare, he calls on a hostile Congress to end wasteful tax breaks for the rich. "We're going to close the unproductive tax loopholes that allow some of the truly wealthy to avoid paying their fair share," he thunders to a crowd in Georgia. Such tax loopholes, he adds, "sometimes made it possible for millionaires to pay nothing, while a bus driver was paying 10 percent of his salary – and that's crazy."

    Preacherlike, the president draws the crowd into a call-and-response. "Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver," he demands, "or less?"

    The crowd, sounding every bit like the protesters from Occupy Wall Street, roars back: "MORE!"

    The year was 1985. The president was Ronald Wilson Reagan.

    Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...#ixzz21J4izgCy
    The Republican party doesn't even resemble itself anymore, it's become a parody of what it once was, it's absolutely disgusting.

  9. #19
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    I'm a 90's kid, and like most true 90's kids, I was born in the 80's, '86 to be exact,

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeitlikethat View Post
    I'm a 90's kid, and like most true 90's kids, I was born in the 80's, '86 to be exact,
    Well thank you for that completely irrelevant comment.

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