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  1. #1
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    Default Get a pair! Don't be a wimp! Be a leader!

    Why does it seem like people ask others or themselves to prove things about themselves to seem better to some standard someone made up? Why is a non wimpy person better than a wimpy person? Why is a leader better than a follower? Why is being mean something to strive for over being nice. Or even the other way around. Why can't a pushy person just be pushy? Why can't a straightforward person just be straightforward.

    It really seems like people should be accepting who they are and growing within the framework of who they are, not trying to be a "less wimpy 9" or an "ISTJ who breaks those stereotypes!"

    It's funny to see things phrased in such a negative way when they are acceptable and common human characteristics.

    Of course, you could argue that I'm trying to change people who want other people to be less wimpy.

  2. #2
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Well I would say living the stereotype is bad if it's harming self or others. There are healthy and unhealthy versions of most traits. We may be saying the same thing.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  3. #3
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    Leaders are nothing without followers...followers are nothing without leaders. Its all one big co-dependent interaction. Leaders are better because there are less and the more rare something is the better aparently. I always thought what you liked better was better, but apparently I was not taught correctly
    Im out, its been fun

  4. #4
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    This thread is too soft for your parameters, Laurie. Grow a pair!
    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  5. #5
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Because it is a good feeling to know YOU are in charge of your life.
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  6. #6

    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Why does it seem like people ask others or themselves to prove things about themselves to seem better to some standard someone made up?
    It is always better to define your own standards.

    Why is a non wimpy person better than a wimpy person?
    It is always better to be strong than weak, that is just a given. And, because the weak don't get to live life according to their standards.

    Why is a leader better than a follower?
    It is better to be independent. Choosing your leaders, or who you lead. Neither is better. Leaders need followers, pop stars need fans.

    Why is being mean something to strive for over being nice.
    Mean over nice is more about effective over ineffective.

    Or even the other way around. Why can't a pushy person just be pushy? Why can't a straightforward person just be straightforward.
    Pushy people are annoying, but they are free to go and be be pushy... to a wall,or thin air. A straightford person is okay.


    It really seems like people should be accepting who they are and growing within the framework of who they are, not trying to be a "less wimpy 9" or an "ISTJ who breaks those stereotypes!"
    This is people looking for balance. People should work to their strengths and shore up their weaknesses.

    It's funny to see things phrased in such a negative way when they are acceptable and common human characteristics.
    A lot of that is attention grabbing.

    Of course, you could argue that I'm trying to change people who want other people to be less wimpy.
    Yeah. You idealist, you.

  7. #7
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    People attach themselves to labels to discover who they are in the first place.
    To ask a person to think of themselves without any externally appointed labels is hard for many. How could it not be? From the very beggining of life you are told who you are. You are 'name'. You are a boy. You are Christian. etc etc.

    So, if a person suddenly becomes disillusioned with those labels, they start seeking other ones. And they hardly ever look internally, because you can come to very scary realizations about yourself. It's much easier to just find another external system from which to self identify. Which is what happens a lot here...I'm not this, or that, I'm actually "infp" or "estj". They think that that label describes who they are better than most of the ones given to them in the past, but they don't realize they are still falling into the same trap that they were trying to escape from in the beggining.

    The goal is to self identify completely internally. But in the process, you can realize that some of what you are is so disagreeable to you that you start to want to just accept the external labels for they are much kinder to you. The key, I've found, is to keep in mind that who you were is only as important as you want it to be as you decide who you are and will be.

    So, yeah, talk of "I'm an intj, but...." is just the attempt to resolve the self more completely with an external system. A futile task, but useful nontheless.

  8. #8
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Why does it seem like people ask others or themselves to prove things about themselves to seem better to some standard someone made up? Why is a non wimpy person better than a wimpy person? Why is a leader better than a follower? Why is being mean something to strive for over being nice. Or even the other way around. Why can't a pushy person just be pushy? Why can't a straightforward person just be straightforward.

    It really seems like people should be accepting who they are and growing within the framework of who they are, not trying to be a "less wimpy 9" or an "ISTJ who breaks those stereotypes!"

    It's funny to see things phrased in such a negative way when they are acceptable and common human characteristics.

    Of course, you could argue that I'm trying to change people who want other people to be less wimpy.
    I'm puzzled by some of that, too. Things like "least wimpy enneagram type" seems kind of meaningless to me. All the enneatypes are fundamentally about unhealthy coping mechanism that prevent engaging, being vulnerable and taking real risks. Some of the enneagram-based defense mechanisms appear dominant and some "wimpy," but they are all fundamentally cowardly in their unwillingness to engage and be vulnerable.

    An 8 (or counter-phobic 6) is often at their MOST disabled and ineffective when they appear strongest and most dominant. A 1 may be at his or her most unhealthy where they appear most confident and sure, or a 3 when he or she appears the most together.


    Sometimes the whole focus on being "dominant", "the alpha male/female", or whatever reminds me of this site, that includes a questionnaire for "alpha males":

    In order to help them see just how open or self-protective they are, we have alpha males respond "yes" or "no" to the following questions:
    • When people ask me something, I have trouble saying, "I don't know."
    • I find ways to let people know I'm smarter than they are.
    • I often exaggerate the extent of my experience.
    • I try to cover up my problems until I find a way to solve them.
    • I deflect attention from anything that makes me look bad.
    • I sometimes pretend to understand things when I'm actually confused.
    • I try to project an image of decisiveness even when I'm not sure what to do.
    Answering "yes" to those questions indicates someone whose defensiveness makes him or her unable to lead effectively, despite their dominant position. In those cases, apparent strength becomes a weakness and has a toxic effect.

    Even ignoring all that, it seems like in the adult world, there's not single metric for success, and there are multiple social hierarchies that people chose among (or choose to opt out of). Human societies are not wolf packs, and to try to reduce things down to a single hierarchies ignores much of what makes modern societies work. While not every situation in life is win/win, reducing everything to a zero-sum game makes for a very impoverished view of human interaction.

    At any rate, as a more "behind the scenes" type who isn't a huge joiner by nature, I find the ongoing obsession with dominance and the appearance of strength and status a little weird. One nice thing about typology, at its best, is that it allows differences to be seen as differences, not as positions on a value hierarchy. The enneagram, in particular, is a call to embrace vulnerability, not obsess over which type is the most bad-ass.

  9. #9
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    Standards are not necessarily arbitrary. Certain traits are simply more valuable in any given situation. For example, in competitive scenarios where resource acquisition is the goal, many of the traits listed in the OP increases the likelihood of success. In relational situations, I doubt anyone would actually want a partner who is lazy, selfish and inconsiderate.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laurie View Post
    Why does it seem like people ask others or themselves to prove things about themselves to seem better to some standard someone made up? Why is a non wimpy person better than a wimpy person? Why is a leader better than a follower? Why is being mean something to strive for over being nice. Or even the other way around. Why can't a pushy person just be pushy? Why can't a straightforward person just be straightforward.

    It really seems like people should be accepting who they are and growing within the framework of who they are, not trying to be a "less wimpy 9" or an "ISTJ who breaks those stereotypes!"

    It's funny to see things phrased in such a negative way when they are acceptable and common human characteristics.

    Of course, you could argue that I'm trying to change people who want other people to be less wimpy.
    I dont mind people being themselves but a lot of the time that messes up everyone elses day.

    There's nothing wrong with wimps, some of the best characters from books are wimps, like Winston Smith in 1984.

    Co-dependency or control freakery are shit, most people should get over that, a lot of politics is premised upon it and its just steadily gotten uglier and uglier over time and while people are hung up that way usually they're forfeiting what could be a better deal for everyone by overthinking the importance of changing someone or something for how it is. Unless its a particularly bad set up or personality, or tending toward that over time, I say leave it as it is.

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