User Tag List

First 6789 Last

Results 71 to 80 of 90

  1. #71
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    MBTI
    ?
    Posts
    184

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    It's not a responsibility nor an obligation, it is an customary expectation. Otherwise, it would be part of the bill.




    Again, this is not the customers fault nor responsibility. It is the employers.
    Regardless of "who's fault it is", the fact remains it is an unfair and somtimes broken system, and by refusing to tip for good service you are entering into an agreement without holdi g up your side of the bargain, thereby using another person unfairly. I can understand why you wouldn't tip for rudeness/bad service, but why rally against it when you understand the consequences of your hypothetical actions, especially when you have already admitted your own sympathies towards the mattwr--devil's advocate or protecting the rights of your sister ( or who ever that person was) to allow another to be taken advantage of?

    Edit: and i want to make this clear that this is not an attack on you, just an effort to clarify your own stance and the origin of that stance.

  2. #72
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    5,529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    It's not a responsibility nor an obligation, it is an customary expectation. Otherwise, it would be part of the bill.




    Again, this is not the customers fault nor responsibility. It is the employers.
    Ok. All you non-tippers here is a fair alternative: As soon as your server greets you, tell them that you don't believe in tipping. Tell them whatever socio-economic bullshit reason you have and let it be known. Then let the chips fall where they may.

    I doubt anyone would do that because then your service would suffer and most non-tippers wouldn't want that because they want to take advantage. They are selfish tightwads who rationalize their bad behavior.

    Just for your information, usually tips are not included in the check unless there is a minimum number of people who are being waited on. So no, it would not be part of the bill.

    Also, if you don't have a problem with the tip being included in the bill why would you have a problem with paying the same amount voluntarily as a percentage based on level of service?

    You really make no sense.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  3. #73
    figsfiggyfigs
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    Regardless of "who's fault it is", the fact remains it is an unfair and somtimes broken system, and by refusing to tip for good service you are entering into an agreement without holdi g up your side of the bargain, thereby using another person unfairly. I can understand why you wouldn't tip for rudeness/bad service, but why rally against it when you understand the consequences of your hypothetical actions, especially when you have already admitted your own sympathies towards the mattwr--devil's advocate or protecting the rights of your sister ( or who ever that person was) to allow another to be taken advantage of?

    Edit: and i want to make this clear that this is not an attack on you, just an effort to clarify your own stance and the origin of that stance.
    I hope you're kidding. You're new, so I suspect you're not. I don't do that, argue for someone who isn't here, nor do I use personal issues as motivation. Why would I argue against a custom I personally practice?

    Unfair broken system is not up to the customer to fix. You could argue it is unfair for a customers to have to put up the rest of the bill for the employers, when it is the employer's responsibility to do so. Just because the employer is not doing it right, it does not automatically make the customer accountable. I would agree that refusing to tip sends the message that service was not very good, but this is only so because it is a socially conditioned reaction.

    There is no holding up your side, if there is no obligations. There are only expectations which are forced onto a customer because there is this mind set that somehow they're responsible.
    "hey they're not paying me enough, now it is your responsibility, because I brought you the food and drinks (a job) they're paying me to do, albeit little". That could be applied to a spectrum of low paying jobs, but a lot of those people don't even work with customers, what are they to do then? Who is responsible at that point?


    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Ok. All you non-tippers here is a fair alternative: As soon as your server greets you, tell them that you don't believe in tipping. Tell them whatever socio-economic bullshit reason you have and let it be known. Then let the chips fall where they may.

    I doubt anyone would do that because then your service would suffer and most non-tippers wouldn't want that because they want to take advantage. They are selfish tightwads who rationalize their bad behavior.

    Just for your information, usually tips are not included in the check unless there is a minimum number of people who are being waited on. So no, it would not be part of the bill.

    Also, if you don't have a problem with the tip being included in the bill why would you have a problem with paying the same amount voluntarily as a percentage based on level of service?

    You really make no sense.
    Wait, so you're saying because one does not tip, then the waiter will treat them like shit? What a fair motivation to tip. "Please act professionally and do the job you were hired to do and I'll pay you extra, just don't spit in my food". Terrible.

    Suffering service should not be a reason to justify tipping at all. That is one of the reasons I think it is unfair to expect people to tip, because it is widely feared that the waiter will be horrid towards their customers at the slightest inkling that they will not tip. This is also why I encourage bills to have tips included because then, it will no longer be an expectation, but an obligation on the customers part. It becomes a legal part of the transaction and will be expected by both the customer and service. If you want food, then you'll have to pay the tip as part of the service. It's no longer socially awkward and forced, but a realistic part of the deal rather than an idealistic one.


    I don't know about Europe, but in Canada, most of the restaurants I went to included tip in the check, so I'm not sure re:minimum.

  4. #74
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w6 sp/sx
    Posts
    5,933

    Default


    -----------------

    A man builds. A parasite asks 'Where is my share?'
    A man creates. A parasite says, 'What will the neighbors think?'
    A man invents. A parasite says, 'Watch out, or you might tread on the toes of God... '


    -----------------

  5. #75
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    9 sp/sx
    Posts
    9,422

    Default

    I tip if the services were to my liking. I also tend to be a generous tipper if that is the case. I don't tip if something wasn't to my liking.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  6. #76
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ISTP
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    5,529

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by YWIR View Post
    I hope you're kidding. You're new, so I suspect you're not. I don't do that, argue for someone who isn't here, nor do I use personal issues as motivation. Why would I argue against a custom I personally practice?

    Unfair broken system is not up to the customer to fix. You could argue it is unfair for a customers to have to put up the rest of the bill for the employers, when it is the employer's responsibility to do so. Just because the employer is not doing it right, it does not automatically make the customer accountable. I would agree that refusing to tip sends the message that service was not very good, but this is only so because it is a socially conditioned reaction.

    There is no holding up your side, if there is no obligations. There are only expectations which are forced onto a customer because there is this mind set that somehow they're responsible.
    "hey they're not paying me enough, now it is your responsibility, because I brought you the food and drinks (a job) they're paying me to do, albeit little". That could be applied to a spectrum of low paying jobs, but a lot of those people don't even work with customers, what are they to do then? Who is responsible at that point?



    Wait, so you're saying because one does not tip, then the waiter will treat them like shit? What a fair motivation to tip. "Please act professionally and do the job you were hired to do and I'll pay you extra, just don't spit in my food". Terrible.

    Suffering service should not be a reason to justify tipping at all. That is one of the reasons I think it is unfair to expect people to tip, because it is widely feared that the waiter will be horrid towards their customers at the slightest inkling that they will not tip. This is also why I encourage bills to have tips included because then, it will no longer be an expectation, but an obligation on the customers part. It becomes a legal part of the transaction and will be expected by both the customer and service. If you want food, then you'll have to pay the tip as part of the service. It's no longer socially awkward and forced, but a realistic part of the deal rather than an idealistic one.


    I don't know about Europe, but in Canada, most of the restaurants I went to included tip in the check, so I'm not sure re:minimum.
    So it's a legal thing now? Before it was governmental control over server wages that was at issue. I guess you can call stinginess any number of things. Either way, you haven't addressed any of my points without contradicting your own values or a collective common sense.

    Your response that your service would suffer (no professional server would treat you like shit but other tables would take precedence over your needs) if you didn't tip is correct. Do you "get it" now? You are rewarding service. If you do not then you are not entering into the customary practice and are taking advantage of it for your own gain.

    Go get a serving job. You wouldn't understand until you do. It can teach anyone really good qualities like patience, humility and generosity. It should be mandatory like the Israeli army. The world would be a better place.
    ~luck favors the ready~


    Shameless Self-Promotion:MDP2525's Den and the Start of Motorcycle Maintenance

  7. #77
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    MBTI
    ?
    Posts
    184

    Default

    @YWIR

    ok, so you're not agruing for anyone... you're just arguing/defending the right of another to refuse to enter into a custom that you commonly enter into?

    you say it's not the obligation of the customer, but it is. i think what you mean to say is, "it shouldn't be the obligation of the customer.", and i agree. either paying the server more or working it into the bill as a gratuity would solve this problem.

    paying more: at some restaurants the server does very little other than take an order and refill drinks. nothing more is expected, and little work is actually being done. at others, it's a full-body workout, and making a highschooler's wage when you're entering a line of work that is damaging to your body... isn't worth it. if you'd like, we can all get paid that child's wage and then have children come serve you and you'd be getting your money's worth. the only reason we do it is because we have the chance to make more than that (and life problems/situations that would foce one into the job), and it is very clear from the get-go that we will not rely on the company to do anything other than bump us back up to minimum wage (this is after they've dipped into our personal earnings and attempted to avoid the hassle of paying their other workers themselves). so, bumping up our base pay to say, a base minimum wage+tips (that customers see fit to give) would be great as long as the money we're making isn't being spread around the restaurant, and our own tips aren't cutting into our check.

    working it into the bill: i'll keep this short since it's obvious... it's the same as you tipping. if it makes people feel better... ok lol, why not, nothing was changed and yet somehow your* mental vision of the situation has? (*as in general, not you specifically)

    you can sit here and say "it shouldn't be the responsibilty of the consumer", but if it doesn't fall to them--and it won't fall onto anyone else, welcome to America--then the consumer will end up "paying" in another way, their experience; it's a lose-lose situation. you can sit there and say what you'd like it to be, which, is what i'd also like it to be... that unreal, fantasical vision is something we both share; how things should be... we agree on that, but how we'd like something to be doesn't change the reality of the situation and that's what i'm trying to tell you. the "extra weight" is on the consumer.

    so, what exactly is your stance on this? it seems like we're arguing without reason. you say you believe in tipping for good service (i agree), you don't believe in tipping for bad service (i agree), you say it shouldn't be the responsibility of the consumer to aument our salary (i agree, it shouldn't... but here's where we disagree: you believe that because it shouldn't be this way, that your wanting somehow changes things--it doesn't).

    so, if you're arguing against a system that is unfair for both the worker and the consumer, hey, i'm right there with you. if you're saying that other's shouldn't have tip ever because it's not right, i'd say don't eat at a restaurant. feel free to practice your beliefs, just not at the expense of another human being.

    but all of the above is almost pointless to even type, because it's not like you don't already think the same thing. what i'm wondering is why, when you believe this, would you still rally against it?

  8. #78
    mrs disregard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    MBTI
    INFP
    Posts
    7,855

    Default

    At restaurants I tip 20%
    For personal services (hair cuts, massage, etc) I tip 25%
    Truly awful service.. Nothing with no remorse. (Has only happened once.)

  9. #79
    figsfiggyfigs
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    So it's a legal thing now? Before it was governmental control over server wages that was at issue. I guess you can call stinginess any number of things. Either way, you haven't addressed any of my points without contradicting your own values or a collective common sense.

    Your response that your service would suffer (no professional server would treat you like shit but other tables would take precedence over your needs) if you didn't tip is correct. Do you "get it" now? You are rewarding service. If you do not then you are not entering into the customary practice and are taking advantage of it for your own gain.

    Go get a serving job. You wouldn't understand until you do. It can teach anyone really good qualities like patience, humility and generosity. It should be mandatory like the Israeli army. The world would be a better place.
    When have I contradicted myself exactly?You might not be understanding a single thing I've said so far because you've latched on to only what bothers you and not what makes sense. EntangledLight gets most of what I've said, yet you don't. I'm not arguing against tipping, but the idea that it is the customers obligation and a social expectation.
    What you've said so far is that bad employments is the customer's burden to carry and mend. You've only argued for waiters rather than a spectrum of jobs who suffer similarly and have no one else to take responsibility for. Plenty of people have worked shitty exhausting and low paying jobs. They provide a service that can't be rewarded. Who is to reward them then?
    And by legal, I meant binding, as in, when a customer enters a restaurant, they are aware that to be served, they are obligated to pay extra, without having to tip again afterwards; in that sort of environment, service will be equal and servers will receive the tip they need. Tip becomes an obligatory part of conduct rather than a social expectation, it becomes the customers responsibility to pay; "get it" ?


    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    @YWIR

    ok, so you're not agruing for anyone... you're just arguing/defending the right of another to refuse to enter into a custom that you commonly enter into?

    you say it's not the obligation of the customer, but it is. i think what you mean to say is, "it shouldn't be the obligation of the customer.", and i agree. either paying the server more or working it into the bill as a gratuity would solve this problem.

    paying more: at some restaurants the server does very little other than take an order and refill drinks. nothing more is expected, and little work is actually being done. at others, it's a full-body workout, and making a highschooler's wage when you're entering a line of work that is damaging to your body... isn't worth it. if you'd like, we can all get paid that child's wage and then have children come serve you and you'd be getting your money's worth. the only reason we do it is because we have the chance to make more than that (and life problems/situations that would foce one into the job), and it is very clear from the get-go that we will not rely on the company to do anything other than bump us back up to minimum wage (this is after they've dipped into our personal earnings and attempted to avoid the hassle of paying their other workers themselves). so, bumping up our base pay to say, a base minimum wage+tips (that customers see fit to give) would be great as long as the money we're making isn't being spread around the restaurant, and our own tips aren't cutting into our check.

    working it into the bill: i'll keep this short since it's obvious... it's the same as you tipping. if it makes people feel better... ok lol, why not, nothing was changed and yet somehow your* mental vision of the situation has? (*as in general, not you specifically)

    you can sit here and say "it shouldn't be the responsibilty of the consumer", but if it doesn't fall to them--and it won't fall onto anyone else, welcome to America--then the consumer will end up "paying" in another way, their experience; it's a lose-lose situation. you can sit there and say what you'd like it to be, which, is what i'd also like it to be... that unreal, fantasical vision is something we both share; how things should be... we agree on that, but how we'd like something to be doesn't change the reality of the situation and that's what i'm trying to tell you. the "extra weight" is on the consumer.

    You guys are exhausting. All you've listed again, is pointing back to being a company issue. Again, it is by default becoming a customer's problem, rather than the owner, just because there is no one else to go to, how is that fair?
    I'm fully aware that you think it should fall onto the customer, which is what I'm arguing against. It shouldn't be their obligation when it is not part of the bill. When it is, then yes, the customer knows that part of the deal(order) is to pay that little extra tip, otherwise gtfo.

    so, what exactly is your stance on this? it seems like we're arguing without reason. you say you believe in tipping for good service (i agree), you don't believe in tipping for bad service (i agree), you say it shouldn't be the responsibility of the consumer to aument our salary (i agree, it shouldn't... but here's where we disagree: you believe that because it shouldn't be this way, that your wanting somehow changes things--it doesn't).

    so, if you're arguing against a system that is unfair for both the worker and the consumer, hey, i'm right there with you. if you're saying that other's shouldn't have tip ever because it's not right, i'd say don't eat at a restaurant. feel free to practice your beliefs, just not at the expense of another human being.

    but all of the above is almost pointless to even type, because it's not like you don't already think the same thing. what i'm wondering is why, when you believe this, would you still rally against it?
    My personal opinion regarding this issue is irrelevant. I'm looking at it from both sides rather than just my own. It's easy to argue for the side that everyone thinks is right.

    If my personal opinion is what you want, I've already stated that I like tipping because I know it helps those doing a tough job, but I also dislike the idea of people judging others for not tipping and by default labeling them as amoral or even looking at the occurrence as completely inexcusable. It's bullshit. The server getting paid very little shouldn't make it the customers job to make sure they're paid well.

  10. #80
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    MBTI
    ?
    Posts
    184

    Default

    @YWIR

    I'm not arguing against tipping, but the idea that it is the customers obligation and a social expectation.
    i don't disagree that this part is "wrong"; it's become a social expectation, and therefore the customers' obligation because of the greed of the company and the general capatilistic attitude of America--it directly falls into "our" ideal, and that is that you take care of yourself as best you can while ignoring the repercussions of your own actions. ignoring the fact that the system is set up and people are conditioned to ignore that "what's best for me" will automatically make it "bad" for another--it's a system that heavily incorporates a yin-yang-like effect, where the "darker" side is unavoidable, to the point that if you attempt to do "good" for another, you inevitably have to do "bad" to yourself (" "'s are present because good/bad/dark/light is subjective--in this case, what's good for the company is bad for the employee, what's good for the employee is "bad" for the consumer, what's good for the consumer is bad for both the employee and the company--a middle ground doesn't exist, not because it's impossible, but because it was never the goal to begin with).

    all i'm saying is that the above is reality. some people don't realize the "woes" of being a server in the U.S., so their ignorance is excusable. to those that do know and adopt an "i don't give a shit attitude", it is not excusable and any colorful adjective one would like to use to describe that person... well, they are well within their right (IMO). if they think any differently or believe it is unfair, all i can say is that their argument holds absolutely no water what-so-ever because they are now saying that your "woes" are less than mine, which is bullshit and an impossible thing to argue.

    basically, a "bad system" is set in place. it does leave the consumer there to pick up the slack... whether this is fair or not, it is, to an extent, common knowledge. since it is known, that one party enters with the expectation of getting good service and then that the service itself isn't free, they are now obligated to pay for that service. not because they believe that it's right or wrong, but because it might as well equate to your version of "legal" in the sense that it's an "agreement that lies outside of the self that will potentially benefit both parties".

    the only part that i don't understand about your post is that it's "wrong" to expect the customer to tip, but ok to include it in the bill? it almost sounds like your problem is with the "un-surety factor" that others face when experiencing a social situation and lacking an objective criteria on which to navigate the problem at hand, only to be ridiculed for not knowing better... which isn't what i'm addressing at all. i'm also looking at this from both sides... if your server is "bad" your experience will suffer, if your server wasn't there, you're experience would again suffer and you'd have to learn the in's and out's of serving in that particular restaurant in order to fill their role, completely changing the experience itself, and the erasing luxury that is eating out to begin with.

    and again, i'm not saying that it "shouldn't be their obligation", i'm not talking about ideals and should's, i'm talking about "what is/are's", and based on "what is", what is the best course of action now.

Similar Threads

  1. [MBTItm] The haiku thread...
    By anii in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 33
    Last Post: 01-22-2017, 11:03 PM
  2. The Beer Thread
    By Noel in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 309
    Last Post: 02-03-2010, 12:07 PM
  3. The GHOST thread
    By swordpath in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 03-14-2008, 08:47 AM
  4. The Hundredth Thread
    By Rajah in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 04-24-2007, 12:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO