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  1. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Of course ---- but again, we're all talking out of different country's experiences as well. See, you guys are defending the right to be tipped
    I think there might be some misunderstanding. I don't think anyone is defending the "right to be tipped". We're simply recognizing that with the system that's in place, tipping is a necessity no matter what your feelings on the matter are unless you're okay with people making no money. I think if you took a poll of the people disagreeing with you here, you'd find that we would prefer the system in use in Canada and Australia (I know I do.) But that's not our reality right now, and I think it would be silly to make my political stand by stiffing waiters.

    ^ This is the very idea that needs to be changed. What needs to be done is that margins have to be set at a reasonable level - and excessive profiteering needs to be checked. Again -- more of a social welfare ideal than a purely capitalistic one. You're talking of a pure capitalistic model where the competition is to maximize the bottom line and in doing so the ideal of passing every cost to the consumer exists. You try to change that ideal and introduce a new ideal into the mix where profits are limited and made more conservative and wages increased instead.

    Am I being blasphemous enough for everyone
    I see the point you're making, but I think that it's a different discussion than how waiters should be paid. I think it's hard to point to a $20 meal and say "it shouldn't cost that much" unless you know what they pay for their food, their rent, their utilities, etc. It would be a hard thing to legislate. I think it's better to let the market tell that restaurant how much is enough profit. If a place doesn't provide a good value to you, don't go. If enough people agree, that restaurant will either lower their prices or close. With a retail business like a restaurant, it's easy to let the market tell them what is enough. I think your ideas on this topic are better directed at profiteering in banking, finance and government contracts - sectors where individual consumers don't make decisions on value that affect the bottom line.
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  2. #32
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    @Patches I have no idea where you worked, but I've never heard of anyone making that much working as a server at a corporate chain. The only time I ever made $300 in a shift waiting tables was as a cocktail waitress in Vegas.

    Other places I've heard of this occurring is in very high end fine dining, where I worked as a back wait and sometimes made 100-150 dollars in tips, and the front waits could sometimes make 200-300 dollars, but it was basically silver service European-style dining in a renovated historic mansion.

    That isn't average for servers to make that much money, I'm guessing you worked in a high traffic tourist spot, which is why I could make so many tips in Vegas.

    Also remember that serving is hard physical labor, and while it may seem like "nothing" if you do it for a few semesters in college, or for a summer for extra money, people who wait tables for years, especially as they age, end up with physical injuries and permanent conditions sometimes because of waiting tables, in their hands, feet, back, knees, etc.

    So I respectfully disagree.

  3. #33
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    your experience sounds like most servers who waited tables before the economy went bad (at least, that's what i hear from most "lifers"). now, the ones i know pick up 2nd and 3rd jobs, or do oddjobs at the restaurant such as maintence and cleaning to make ends meet.
    It was before the economy went bad, this is true.

    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    i cannot believe you got minimum wage on top of tips!
    Oh, I didn't. I think my 'actual' pay was somewhere around 3$ per hour. All the numbers I threw out there are tips that are assuming an approximate of 15% from each table, which i realize isn't always the case, but it's all hypothetical.

    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    my experience is vastly different. i wish i had yours Patches :P.
    Oy, I'd never go back to waiting tables. I simply can not be in a customer service industry. <Not a friendly waitress.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

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  4. #34
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    If you fail to tip them, they're actually paying for the privilege of serving you.
    Many restaurants require servers to pay a percentage of their total liquor sales to the bar. (Total food and liquor sales are calculated separately for servers.) If a customer drinks like a fish with his meal, but stiffs the server, the server takes an even bigger hit than if the customer had ordered food only.

    I usually tip 20%.
    The future is for the unafraid.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Yeah --- but there's also this desire to sometimes consume more than one can afford to indulge. If we were a part of an equitable system where waiters and waitresses were paid a fair share and society didn't need tips, it would just make that once in a while experience more easily accessible for all. Of course, like I said, I still tip --- but given the choice in my ideal world where everyone was already well taken care of, I wouldn't.
    Okay and this is probably where I balked at what I perceived as your irrationality. You are seeming to express you have some kind of right to overspend, which is ....well, anyway, it's nice...but it's certainly not a right.

    And in an "ideal world" where you didn't have to tip the servers, there would be less homeless people, because working people would make livable wages and the mentally ill would be treated for their conditions humanely.

    I, on the other hand, am talking about this world. My world, in particular, being a citizen of the U.S.

  6. #36
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I see the point you're making, but I think that it's a different discussion than how waiters should be paid. I think it's hard to point to a $20 meal and say "it shouldn't cost that much" unless you know what they pay for their food, their rent, their utilities, etc. It would be a hard thing to legislate. I think it's better to let the market tell that restaurant how much is enough profit. If a place doesn't provide a good value to you, don't go. If enough people agree, that restaurant will either lower their prices or close. With a retail business like a restaurant, it's easy to let the market tell them what is enough. I think your ideas on this topic are better directed at profiteering in banking, finance and government contracts - sectors where individual consumers don't make decisions on value that affect the bottom line.
    So -- if it's so hard to legislate, then why is it that Canada has been able to successfully implement a higher wage rate than America for waiters and waitresses?

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    So -- if it's so hard to legislate, then why is it that Canada has been able to successfully implement a higher wage rate than America for waiters and waitresses?
    That's an entirely different point. What I said was hard to legislate is how much profit a business could/should be entitled to make. It's easy to implement a higher minimum wage if the will is there.
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  8. #38
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    I, on the other hand, am talking about this world. My world, in particular, being a citizen of the U.S.
    But the US isn't the only country in the world - and the American point of view isn't the only rational point of view.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    That's an entirely different point. What I said was hard to legislate is how much profit a business could/should be entitled to make. It's easy to implement a higher minimum wage if the will is there.
    I agree with both your points ---- but what I have a hard time seeing is why is that change so hard to implement - especially when these changes have been implemented and proven to work in non-American countries.

    The restaurants here are successful and rarely close down. I pay about 20 bucks for a meal at a nice restaurant, and still pay the tip on top of it --- but at the same time, I know that if I didn't pay a tip on a particular bad outing, I wouldn't be hurting the waiter/waitress to the point where they would struggle to put food on the table. For people who do end up without employment, there's unemployment insurance that can last up to a year. There's social welfare programs that help put food on the table. There's free medical care. There's free maternity. There's mother allowance.

    So I feel less of a responsibility to take care of other people when I go out and do my own thing. I feel less obligated to give charity but I still do. It's basically everything that comes out of my own taxes in the end. We take care of each other through trust that we'll be taken care of in our worst time of need through "other" means - if you know what I mean. That's I suppose because as you said "it's easier to implement a higher wage if the will is there".

  10. #40
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    @EntangledLight

    Yes, I have noticed that the economy has affected the number of serving jobs and how much servers make. An old co-worker of one of my friends was telling her how the tips she made when she worked at that restaurant before the stock market crash are nothing but a mere fantastic memory for the people who continue to work there.

    And when I made tons of money as a server, I was in a good economy, at either a tourist spot or a place where ONLY upper middle class and wealthy people dined.

    Small time servers in Anywhere, U.S.A. I know aren't making that kind of money. Especially not now.

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