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  1. #21
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    i've noticed something with Pi-dom.'s, that their experience (regardless of which, and yes, Ni does also work off of experience, it treats it differently and works through a different medium) is their reality. so, not to poke fun at ISTJ's, but my brother-in-law and my close (amazing) friend are both ISTJ's and are terrible tippers. but, back to the "experience" factor, some that i work with will tip outrageously (like 50%). when i raise my eyebrows at them, they're just like, "hey, i've waited (or am waiting) tables. i know how it is, plus that person is sweating enough to fill my drink without a pitcher". in other words... i think experience plays a large role for everyone, but maybe doubly so for Pi-doms??? eh...
    This is a really interesting observation, because I'm a pretty poor tipper based upon my own experiences. Same method, different conclusion. My motivation for asking the question initially kind of had to do with a post I wrote 2 years ago, which was dubbed "ISTJ post of the year" by another poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patches
    I feel like prefacing this by saying that I've been a waitress in the past. People constantly complained about how the tourists tip so shitty. I felt like I was making more than such a menial task deserved most days. And I was not a friendly waitress, I should never be in customer service ever.

    Most places don't share their tips with the cooks and busboys. I'm not tipping the people cooking the food and cleaning up after. I'm tipping the smiling face that is there to take my order and refill my drink.

    I mentioned in my first post that tipping should be for services above/beyond expectations. The ONLY reason I bother tipping at all is because it's fucked up that they earn below minimum wage. So if I'm in the restaurant for roughly an hour..... Lets assume with 3-4 people. If I give them 7.25 as a tip hypothetically, thats minimum wage right there. On top of what they get paid, on top of whatever the other tables she's simultaneously working tip her.

    If you're working four 4-tops at once at a place like Outback or something, figure roughly an 80$ check. Thats 12$ a table at 15% times 4 tables is 48$ for people staying for (rounding up) 2 hours. 24 dollars an hour for only 4 tables. And if they're ordering drinks? It adds up quickly.

    Especially if they're not a particularly great server, thats more than enough for such a menial job. On a weekend when people were ordering drinks I could walk away from an 8 hour shift with 300$. Thats 37.50 an hour. Including slow days, I made an average around 15-18$ per hour overall.

    Sorry, but that job doesn't deserve 15$ an hour.
    ^That's the post I had in mind when I asked.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

    ~

  2. #22
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    I'm a good tipper...

    Waiters make shit.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Being a consumer isn't like being a worker. People may work for corporations because they're desperate. You don't go out to eat at Applebees because you're desperate.
    Yeah --- but there's also this desire to sometimes consume more than one can afford to indulge. If we were a part of an equitable system where waiters and waitresses were paid a fair share and society didn't need tips, it would just make that once in a while experience more easily accessible for all. Of course, like I said, I still tip --- but given the choice in my ideal world where everyone was already well taken care of, I wouldn't.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    I agree with this post entirely. However, change doesn't come till change is advocated.

    I admit that it's easy for me personally to sit here and make statements without really understanding the situation fully in your country and admittedly I have pretty much always been of privileged class as well and therefore been in a position to give 20-30% of my earnings to charity throughout my practical life.

    I've done my part in trying to both advocate change as well as try to live by principles around giving. But at some point the mode of giving has to change to get more benefits to the under-privileged at a mass level. A few people trying to change the world are like pebbles in the ocean. The real change has to come at a governmental level -- but that change won't come till society places a higher value on social welfare as opposed to corporate greed.

    I understand the nuances of capitalism all to well and I have spent years in the corporate system trying to change things from within through demanding higher pay for my subordinates as well as advocating a shift towards healthy unionization - and always met with the kind of resistance that makes me wonder what sort of principles the world operates with.
    I always find it ironic when people advocate corporitizing of business, but not unionization of workers. It's like, look asshole, you can't have it both ways without looking like a blatant scumbag. You can have independently run, small business without unions OR you can be robber barons and have massive corporations and have to deal with the fact that your workers will also form groups.

    I don't have Fe so I have resisted trying to change the system from the inside, and instead attempt to live outside of it as much as I can. I have managed to boycott Wal-Mart for a couple of years, and I have avoided working for a corporation since I left college.

    I would rather work for the government than a corporation, and I don't see the sensible behavior in a person choosing to work for multi-national corporations if they are anti big government. Again to me - illogical and stupid. Either you don't like big systems controlling people or you do. You don't get it both ways. If you hate large, interfering systems manipulating people on a national or worldwide level, you'd resist corporatization as much as big government.

    Not you, personally, you in general.

  5. #25
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I tip at least 20% I've been known to tip a lot higher. usually 30 is average for me. I'm not a cheapskate I can be on my last monies and i'll ask the bartender to cut me off at x amount to insure i have enough to leave a tip
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Talk about over-reacting.

    Tipping is pay on top of earnings -- it's a gratuity -- privilege and not a right.

    Waiters aren't exactly working for free are they? So why tip them.
    No, you're right. They aren't working for free - they're not that lucky. If you fail to tip them, they're actually paying for the privilege of serving you. EntangledLight is correct...restaurants take a certain percentage of expected tips out of a server's pay to distribute to bussers and hosts/hostesses since those people can't be tipped directly. If a server doesn't get those tips, they're losing money by working. I don't like the system any more than you do - I'd rather just pay more for my meal and have servers make a decent wage than bother with the hassle of tipping - but that's the method in use and I don't see the point in taking out my displeasure on the victims of the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    But I also think that it's unfair for a company to charge upwards of $20 for a single dish and pay their waiters only $2/hour --- and STILL expect the consumer to bear the burden of the waiters through tips. The consumers are also not always the most highly paid people in the world and are also mostly hand-to-mouth themselves.
    I'm not sure you're right, since if we abolished tipping that meal would cost $25 instead of $20...you'd still be paying the tip, it would just be hidden in the cost of the meal. But even assuming you are right, why advocate taking out your wrath on the waiter instead of the company? By not tipping, the only person you're hurting is the waiter, who is already the victim of this system. (I understand that you do actually tip a little bit, but you are arguing that you shouldn't have to.)
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    No, you're right. They aren't working for free - they're not that lucky. If you fail to tip them, they're actually paying for the privilege of serving you. EntangledLight is correct...restaurants take a certain percentage of expected tips out of a server's pay to distribute to bussers and hosts/hostesses since those people can't be tipped directly. If a server doesn't get those tips, they're losing money by working. I don't like the system any more than you do - I'd rather just pay more for my meal and have servers make a decent wage than bother with the hassle of tipping - but that's the method in use and I don't see the point in taking out my displeasure on the victims of the system.
    Of course ---- but again, we're all talking out of different country's experiences as well. See, you guys are defending the right to be tipped --- I don't even see it as a right which is why there's a lot more disagreement with my point of view --- which I accept would be unpopular. I'm also looking at this primarily from the Canadian perspective where waiters make a between $9- $11+ / hour and anything less is illegal and not allowed.

    Here's a full list of minimum wages in Ontario: http://toronto.about.com/od/learning...nimum-wage.htm

    I accept that there's a lot more competition out there in the States and honestly, I'm not a huge fan of life there anyways. I accept that tipping helps there and is a way of the system. But in all fairness,

    I'm not sure you're right, since if we abolished tipping that meal would cost $25 instead of $20...you'd still be paying the tip, it would just be hidden in the cost of the meal.
    ^ This is the very idea that needs to be changed. What needs to be done is that margins have to be set at a reasonable level - and excessive profiteering needs to be checked. Again -- more of a social welfare ideal than a purely capitalistic one. You're talking of a pure capitalistic model where the competition is to maximize the bottom line and in doing so the ideal of passing every cost to the consumer exists. You try to change that ideal and introduce a new ideal into the mix where profits are limited and made more conservative and wages increased instead.

    Am I being blasphemous enough for everyone

  8. #28
    Senior Member Etherea's Avatar
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    Just wanted to point out that wanting to not to HAVE to tip, isn't the same as not wanting to tip at all. I think if we lived in a society where servers got paid a fair wage, they would provide a better service because they are no longer expecting a tip. They have to earn the tip, which is what the tip is supposed to be. That way you don't feel like you have to tip subpar service.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post

    I'm not sure you're right, since if we abolished tipping that meal would cost $25 instead of $20...you'd still be paying the tip, it would just be hidden in the cost of the meal. But even assuming you are right, why advocate taking out your wrath on the waiter instead of the company? By not tipping, the only person you're hurting is the waiter, who is already the victim of this system. (I understand that you do actually tip a little bit, but you are arguing that you shouldn't have to.)
    I'd be fine with this system, I suck at math and have a hard time figuring out tips, if it was added to the meal ahead of time great
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  10. #30
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
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    @Patches

    no i don't mind! :P

    ... i think i see what you're saying. that you see some validity in my observation? as in, your experience was a server's wet dream, so that information colors your reality, where as my experience is the opposite (lol) and it colors mine? (although, i'm not sure on my type; that's under investigation)

    your experience sounds like most servers who waited tables before the economy went bad (at least, that's what i hear from most "lifers"). now, the ones i know pick up 2nd and 3rd jobs, or do oddjobs at the restaurant such as maintence and cleaning to make ends meet.

    i cannot believe you got minimum wage on top of tips! sounds like alaska, where waiting tables is actually a sought after job (they can pull in like 40 grand a year easy... ). i made around 12 grand last year, although i also only work part time while i go to school--that is 2-3 shifts--so i will also be picking up a second job. i don't know how it was at your place, but with everything we're expected to do (and how we're supposed to "work around" the restaurants needs), it becomes a juggling act that forces you to choose which table to focus on, which table you think will actually reward you for your work, and to again, forces you to let a little slide on some. if you don't do everything right, lol... i've had customers get a $200 bill for free because i wasn't "giving them enough attention", and my gf almost got fired because she "wasn't making enough eye contact"... this is because we're trying to go over the menu with people who are supposedly literate while being nice, while figuring out how to best modify every other order on a 12-top without making the kitchen go "fuck it", noticing which drinks have been immediately drained upon just setting them down, and the same with all of our other tables... i am usually covered in sweat, and i'm constantly power-walking/running (my boss has even gotten onto me multiple times for running--supposedly that's a health hazard :P), to the point that my entire body hurts after a busy night, and i probably only made $60... and the tips weren't bad, it's more to do with how the restaurant is ordered... it doesn't allow for the "wet dream" coordination, it's basically: slow, slow, slow, too busy to accomadate so many people (this is where the $20 an hour comes in--for one hour), then slow, slow, slow, we're cutting people, give us some money and go home... lol.

    my experience is vastly different. i wish i had yours Patches :P.

    p.s. about to watch a movie with my gf and some family so i'll repsond in time, i'm not ignoring anyone.

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