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  1. #11
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    Waiters are usually working for about $2 an hour, after taxes. It's certainly not a living wage. In a "perfect" capitalist system, it's just a clever way to solve the agency problem, but when people don't tip adequately then it's the waitstaff and not the owners who suffer.
    Which is why I clarified that I always do tip 10-15% of my bill .. but apparently @Marmie Dearest chose to ignore that post.

    There's a difference in having an opinion and acting on that opinion.

    We do try to make things less unfair for each other.

    But I also think that it's unfair for a company to charge upwards of $20 for a single dish and pay their waiters only $2/hour --- and STILL expect the consumer to bear the burden of the waiters through tips. The consumers are also not always the most highly paid people in the world and are also mostly hand-to-mouth themselves.

  2. #12
    Senior Member EntangledLight's Avatar
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    hey peeps...

    why don't we make a "tipping" thread? huh, huh? this way we can all get what we need to say out and we won't derail Stephen's thead... how 'bout it?

    edit: and as far as the dispute that's going on now, i edited my first post here, on page 4 (?), that will answer the questions that are neccesary to, in a way, end this... or maybe just bring it elsewhere. :P

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    That's all well and good but the truth is that it doesn't cover wages. Not for the waitstaff, anyway. I don't by any means disagree with giving money to homeless people, but honestly, some of your waiters and waitresses probably aren't far from homelessness.
    Some waiters may even BE homeless. There are working homeless people, and if working people aren't paid fairly, then there will just be more homeless people.

    Not to mention that giving money to the homeless indiscriminately - rather than feeding them, giving them a blanket, finding them a place to stay - may lead to a mentally ill person just spending that money on crack or alcohol in some cases.

    You can't fix a broken system by punishing the working, saying they need to "give better service" to even get a tip, but then just hand money to someone because they happen to be pan handling.

    For all you know that waiter lives in a homeless shelter or sleeps on someone's couch or floor.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You can't fix a broken system by punishing the working, saying they need to "give better service" to even get a tip, but then just hand money to someone because they happen to be pan handling.
    You fix a broken system by allowing minimum wage caps to be set and adhered to at the top levels instead of constantly passing off the burden onto consumers for every little thing. In fact, it was an American who came up with the original principle of paying his workers enough so that they could afford his own cars but his principle has pretty much been reduced to a text book. I'm talking about Henry Ford's decision to pay his workers enough that they could afford to buy the cars they produced.

    Getting paid $2 to wait tables is considered exploitation in many countries. In Canada, there's a minimum wage for waiters and waitresses which all but makes tipping redundant. Sorry that such working conditions don't exist all over the world, but I still fail to see why it's the consumers' responsibility to pay for the food as well as pay extra for waiters. It's become a social obligation out of existing circumstance where nothing is being done to change the prevailing conditions of the society which leads to this situation in the first place.

  5. #15
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Some waiters may even BE homeless. There are working homeless people, and if working people aren't paid fairly, then there will just be more homeless people.

    Not to mention that giving money to the homeless indiscriminately - rather than feeding them, giving them a blanket, finding them a place to stay - may lead to a mentally ill person just spending that money on crack or alcohol in some cases.

    You can't fix a broken system by punishing the working, saying they need to "give better service" to even get a tip, but then just hand money to someone because they happen to be pan handling.

    For all you know that waiter lives in a homeless shelter or sleeps on someone's couch or floor.
    I've been homeless while working as a waitress, I'm very well aware this is possible. I'm advocating for better tips.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    Which is why I clarified that I always do tip 10-15% of my bill .. but apparently @Marmie Dearest chose to ignore that post.

    There's a difference in having an opinion and acting on that opinion.

    We do try to make things less unfair for each other.

    But I also think that it's unfair for a company to charge upwards of $20 for a single dish and pay their waiters only $2/hour --- and STILL expect the consumer to bear the burden of the waiters through tips. The consumers are also not always the most highly paid people in the world and are also mostly hand-to-mouth themselves.
    Exactly, so the working person and average consumer get shafted. This is common sense. However, LAWS have to be changed in order to address this. This is why I think laissez-faire capitalism is made of idiotic fail, because if you don't pay middle class people enough so they can pay for healthcare, then they get sick and become working class or even poor. And if you don't pay your working class enough, you have more poor. And the more poor you have, the more people you have in the street, and the more crime you have.

    People operate in entire systems, and saying people should have freedom without responsibility makes no sense, because we all live together, unless you'd like to go live on a island, which is what I often hope for for the anarcho-capitalists, so they can go play Lord of the Flies elsewhere.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    I've been homeless while working as a waitress, I'm very well aware this is possible. I'm advocating for better tips.
    I know I'm not arguing with you, I'm speaking in general terms of this thread.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix View Post
    You fix a broken system by allowing minimum wage caps to be set and adhered to at the top levels instead of constantly passing off the burden onto consumers for every little thing. In fact, it was an American who came up with the original principle of paying his workers enough so that they could afford his own cars but his principle has pretty much been reduced to a text book. I'm talking about Henry Ford's decision to pay his workers enough that they could afford to buy the cars they produced.

    Getting paid $2 to wait tables is considered exploitation in many countries. In Canada, there's a minimum wage for waiters and waitresses which all but makes tipping redundant. Sorry that such working conditions don't exist all over the world, but I still fail to see why it's the consumers' responsibility to pay for the food as well as pay extra for waiters. It's become a social obligation out of existing circumstance where nothing is being done to change the prevailing conditions of the society which leads to this situation in the first place.
    It's your responsibility because you chose to eat there. You can choose not to eat at a corporate chain. You can choose to only eat at home, or at small businesses.

    Being a consumer isn't like being a worker. People may work for corporations because they're desperate. You don't go out to eat at Applebees because you're desperate.

  9. #19
    Klingon Warrior Princess Patches's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EntangledLight View Post
    hey peeps...

    why don't we make a "tipping" thread? huh, huh? this way we can all get what we need to say out and we won't derail Stephen's thead... how 'bout it?
    I think this is an excellent idea! I hope you don't mind me splitting it in such a way that you look like the thread starter.
    “Everybody has a secret world inside of them. All of the people of the world, I mean everybody. No matter how dull and boring they are on the outside, inside
    them they've all got unimaginable, magnificent, wonderful, stupid, amazing worlds. Not just one world. Hundreds of them. Thousands maybe.” -Neil Gaiman

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  10. #20
    Senior Member Phoenix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Exactly, so the working person and average consumer get shafted. This is common sense. However, LAWS have to be changed in order to address this. This is why I think laissez-faire capitalism is made of idiotic fail, because if you don't pay middle class people enough so they can pay for healthcare, then they get sick and become working class or even poor. And if you don't pay your working class enough, you have more poor. And the more poor you have, the more people you have in the street, and the more crime you have.

    People operate in entire systems, and saying people should have freedom without responsibility makes no sense, because we all live together, unless you'd like to go live on a island, which is what I often hope for for the anarcho-capitalists, so they can go play Lord of the Flies elsewhere.
    I agree with this post entirely. However, change doesn't come till change is advocated.

    I admit that it's easy for me personally to sit here and make statements without really understanding the situation fully in your country and admittedly I have pretty much always been of privileged class as well and therefore been in a position to give 20-30% of my earnings to charity throughout my practical life.

    I've done my part in trying to both advocate change as well as try to live by principles around giving. But at some point the mode of giving has to change to get more benefits to the under-privileged at a mass level. A few people trying to change the world are like pebbles in the ocean. The real change has to come at a governmental level -- but that change won't come till society places a higher value on social welfare as opposed to corporate greed.

    I understand the nuances of capitalism all to well and I have spent years in the corporate system trying to change things from within through demanding higher pay for my subordinates as well as advocating a shift towards healthy unionization - and always met with the kind of resistance that makes me wonder what sort of principles the world operates with.

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